Author Topic: The Black Hole images  (Read 1229 times)

Offline Miriam_M

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The Black Hole images
« on: April 11, 2019, 03:25:39 AM »
Have any of you been reading about these?
The first thought that came to my mind was, 'Hell."  No sooner had I thought that than I saw "Hell" several times in print, regarding this story, in secular publications.
 

Offline clau clau

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 05:33:35 AM »
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 05:35:33 AM by clau clau »
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Offline mikemac

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 11:19:59 AM »
The CBC broadcast about the black hole yesterday mentioned hell.


Personally I think they have a picture of something that they want to call a black hole.  But they have no proof that this picture is of a black hole.  Just like a lot of science these days, they are jumping to conclusions.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 11:58:19 AM »
it looks like Sauron
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2019, 09:17:20 AM »
All Your Questions About the New Black Hole Image Answered

In Live Science.



Yesterday, Earthlings first laid eyes on an actual image of a black hole — turning what lived only in our collective imaginations into concrete reality. The image depicts an orange-toned lopsided ring circling the dark shadow of a black hole that gobbles up matter 55 million light-years away at the center of a galaxy known as Virgo A (Messier 87). This blurry first look is enough to confirm that Einstein's theory of relativity works even at the boundary of this giant abyss — an extreme location where some thought his equations would break down. But this elusive image raises lots of questions. Here are some of your questions answered.

What is a black hole?

Black holes are extremely dense objects that nothing, not even light, can escape. As they eat nearby matter, they grow in size. Black holes usually form when a large star dies and collapses onto itself. Supermassive black holes, which are millions or billions of times as massive as the sun, are thought to lie in the center of almost every galaxy, including our own. Our's is called Sagittarius A*.

Why haven't we seen an image of a black hole before?

Black holes, even supermassive ones, aren't that big. For instance, taking an image of the black hole at the center of our Milky Way, which is thought to be around 4 million times as massive as the sun, would be like taking a picture of a DVD on the surface of the moon, Dimitrios Psaltis, an astrophysicist at the University of Arizona, told Vox. Also, black holes are typically shrouded by material that can obscure the light surrounding the black hole, they wrote.

Before this image, how did we know black holes existed?

Einstein's theory of relativity first predicted that when a massive star died, it left behind a dense core. If this core was over three times as massive as the sun, his equations showed that the force of gravity produced a black hole, according to NASA. But until yesterday (April 10), scientists couldn't photograph or directly observe black holes. Rather, they relied on indirect evidence — behavior or signals coming from other objects nearby. For example, a black hole gobbles up stars that veer too close to it. This process heats the stars, causing them to emit X-ray signals that are detectable by telescopes. Sometimes black holes also spit out giant bursts of charged particles, which is, again, detectable by our instruments. Scientists also sometimes study the movement of objects — if they seem to be pulled weirdly, a black hole could be the culprit.

What are we seeing in the image?

Black holes themselves emit too little radiation to be detected, but as Einstein predicted, a black hole's outline and its event horizon — the boundary beyond which light can't escape — can be seen. It turns out, that's true. The dark circle in the middle is the "shadow" of the black hole that is revealed by the glowing gas that sits at the event horizon around it. (The extreme gravitational pull of the black hole superheats the gas, causing it to emit radiation or "glow"). But the gas in the event horizon isn't really orange — rather the astronomers involved in the project chose to color radio-wave signals orange to depict how bright the emissions are. The yellow tones represent the most intense emissions, while red depicts lower intensity and black represents little or no emissions. In the visible spectrum, the color of the emissions would probably be seen with the naked eye as white, perhaps slightly tainted with blue or red. You can read more in this Live Science article.

Why is the image blurry?

With current technology, that's the highest resolution achievable. The resolution of the Event Horizon Telescope is about 20 microarcseconds. (One microarcsecond is about the size of a period at the end of a sentence if you were looking at it from Earth and that period was in a leaflet left on the moon, according to the Journal of the Amateur Astronomers Association of New York.) If you take an ordinary photo that contains millions of pixels, blow it up a few thousand times and smooth it out, you'll see about the same resolution as seen in the black hole image, according to Geoffrey Crew, the vice chair of the Event Horizon Telescope. But considering they are imaging a black hole 55 million light-years away, that's incredibly impressive.

Why is the ring so irregular in shape?

The mission scientists don't yet know. "Good question, and one we hope to answer in the future," Crew said. "For the moment, it's what M87 has shown us."

How did scientists capture this image?

Over 200 astronomers around the world took the measurements using eight ground-based radio telescopes collectively known as the Event Horizon Telescope (EHT). These telescopes are typically located at high-altitude sites such as volcanoes in Hawaii and Mexico, mountains in Arizona and the Spanish Sierra Nevada, the Atacama Desert and Antarctica, according to a statement from the National Science Foundation. In April 2017, the astronomers synchronized all the telescopes to take measurements of radio waves being emitted from the event horizon of the black hole, all at the same time. Synchronizing the telescopes was akin to creating an Earth-size telescope with an impressive resolution of 20 microarcseconds — enough to read a newspaper in the hands of a New Yorker all the way from a cafe in Paris, according to the statement. (In comparison, the black hole they imaged is about 42 microarcseconds across). They then took all these raw measurements, analyzed them and combined them into the image that you see.

Why did the scientists measure radio waves rather than visible light to capture the image?

They could get better resolution by using radio waves than if they used visible light. "Radio waves currently offer the highest angular resolution of any technique at present," Crew said. Angular resolution refers to how well (the smallest angle) a telescope can discern between two separate objects.

Is this an actual photograph?

No, not in the traditional sense. "It is difficult to make an image with radio waves," Crew said. The mission scientists measured radio waves being emitted from the black hole's event horizon and then processed that information with a computer to make the image that you see.

Does this image yet again prove Einstein's theory of relativity?

Yep. Einstein's theory of relativity predicted that black holes exist and that they have event horizons. The equations also predict that the event horizon should be somewhat circular and the size should be directly related to the black hole's mass. Lo and behold: a somewhat circular event horizon and the inferred mass of the black hole matches estimates of what it should be based on the movement of stars farther away from it. You can read more on Space.com.

Why didn't they capture an image of our own galaxy's black hole, instead choosing one far away?

M87 was the first black hole researchers measured so they first analyzed that, Shep Doeleman, the Event Horizon Telescope's director, said during a news conference. But it was also an easier one to image in comparison with Sagittarius A*, which sits at the center of our galaxy, he added. That is because it's so far away that it doesn't "move" much during the course of an evening of taking measurements. Sagittarius A* is much closer, so it's not as "fixed" in the sky. In any case, "we're very excited to work on Sag A*," Doeleman said. "We're not promising anything, but we hope to get that very soon."
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2019, 01:00:54 PM »
Yes, thank you, Vetus.  I did read about black holes quite a bit in the NYT and other publications.  My interest in this story, for this thread, was much more on the possibility of Hell being the black holes themselves. Traditionally, Catholicism has considered Hell to be a single (massive) location rather than a multiplicity of locations, but I suppose it's also possible that they converge at some point.  IOW, that the black holes are entrance ways. 

At the very least, the operation of them, as described by the scientists, is a scary metaphor for Hell.

Regarding the science of it, I found this page especially interesting:
https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/why-youll-never-escape-from-a-black-hole-43e9e3401513
 

Offline Markus

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2019, 02:00:19 PM »
Black holes are so obviously a hoax.

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2019, 02:26:47 PM »
Hell is in the center of the earth (this is what the church fathers and doctors teach). Who would even listen to what these mostly Antichrist scientists have to say. For them multiple universes mean multiple hell holes therefore Catholicism's claims are wrong. Let's forget about the cosmic exploration business and an enormous waste of money that goes in to these endeavors.
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2019, 05:50:49 PM »
Who would even listen to what these mostly Antichrist scientists have to say.

Overwhelmingly, I believe that modern scientists (especially astronomers and physicists) are intellectually untrustworthy, due to their prejudices (about "other universes") and motivations (defeat Christianity, especially traditional Catholicism).  So I don't listen uncritically to what they have to say, but I do think it's important to know what the opposition is publicizing on any given day.

OTOH, I find it equally contradictory to the faith to pursue, as many Catholics do, a fascination with so-called (friendly or neutral) "aliens from other planets,"  "extra-terrestrials," etc.  Talk about hoax.  The only aliens from other locations than earth would have to be demonic.  It is antithetical to the nature of God for Him to hide his creation.  Creation is a manifestation of His glory and was made for that purpose.  If it weren't antithetical, it would be and is at least an unholy waste of time.  God is not pleased with mere frivolous curiosity.  He is pleased with curiosity about His creation, including inquiry into our own selves, bodies, minds:  the study of humanity, the study of knowledge, the study of history, the study of (and preservation of) the natural world in its immensity.  None of us here, had we started such study as soon as we could walk, talk, and read, would be able to learn all there is to know about creation if we lived to be over 100, with our faculties intact. 

Therefore, I probably have even less respect for inane ideas about friendly space aliens than I have for the irresponsible scientists you and I dislike. 

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For them multiple universes mean multiple hell holes therefore Catholicism's claims are wrong.

I agree that that's probably their aim.  However, it's possible that there are many physical entrances to a single Hell.  That was my only point.

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Let's forget about the cosmic exploration business and an enormous waste of money that goes in to these endeavors.
I also think it's an enormous waste of time and money much better spent in ways harmonious with the mind of God than in what amounts to recreational pursuits and experimentation without purpose.  This week's story about the astronaut who returned with a changed body (not for the better) is an example of what happens when man disturbs the divine order.  The astronaut deserves whatever consequences have resulted.
 
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Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2019, 08:23:08 PM »
Yes Miriam. It would be extraordinary if the astronaut came back intact. The amount of radiation in space is overwhelming. These astronauts are either stupid, brainwashed (e.i would do everything for the advance of their cosmic mission).
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Offline cgraye

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2019, 08:25:53 PM »
Um...relax, guys.  It's just a place where gravity is really strong, not a gateway to hell or a conspiracy to undermine the credibility of the claims of Christianity.
 

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2019, 08:59:57 PM »
Um...relax, guys.  It's just a place where gravity is really strong, not a gateway to hell or a conspiracy to undermine the credibility of the claims of Christianity.
We know that. But I cannot stand the stupidity of this faithless world. looking for a bacteria somewhere in the unknown space just to prove that there could be life somewhere on planet Poseidon 3 billion light years away from here or whatever they come up with.
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2019, 09:50:16 PM »
Um...relax, guys.  It's just a place where gravity is really strong, not a gateway to hell or a conspiracy to undermine the credibility of the claims of Christianity.
We know that.

The Church's doctrine on the exact location of Hell and the conduits to it does not rise to the level of de fide dogma.  What is de fide is that Hell exists, it's a place of eternal punishment, and souls earn their place there, by their own rejection of God.

The afterlife is an interest of mine, certainly not a fixation. I don't think that makes me agitated and in need of "relaxing."  If nothing else the phenomenon of a black hole is interesting to me as a metaphor or sign. The important thing is to avoid it, wherever it is.

As to conspiracy theories, I doubt that black holes themselves are part of such conspiracies, but those of us who read a fair amount of science are well aware of the "religionist" nature of many contemporary physicists and astronomers. They directly inject their personal (and highly negative) philosophy into their so-called discoveries and so-called theories.  Many do have an agenda or agendas, plural, which becomes obvious in their written and oral communication.  Scientists were once much more open.  That is the true nature of a scientist.
 
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Offline cgraye

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2019, 12:40:08 AM »
As to conspiracy theories, I doubt that black holes themselves are part of such conspiracies, but those of us who read a fair amount of science are well aware of the "religionist" nature of many contemporary physicists and astronomers. They directly inject their personal (and highly negative) philosophy into their so-called discoveries and so-called theories.  Many do have an agenda or agendas, plural, which becomes obvious in their written and oral communication.  Scientists were once much more open.  That is the true nature of a scientist.

That's a minority of scientists - they are just over-represented by the media.  Most just want to run their experiments and analyze their data.  And even if they inject their personal philosophies into their commentaries, it doesn't affect the actual work (in the hard sciences) - you can't inject a personal philosophy into an equation, and astronomical objects are what they are regardless of what anyone thinks.  If anything, it's an artifact of works of popular science, where you have presenters making crude analogies to try to explain something abstract and audiences taking precise, technical statements and ascribing meanings to them that no one intended.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: The Black Hole images
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2019, 01:27:10 AM »
As to conspiracy theories, I doubt that black holes themselves are part of such conspiracies, but those of us who read a fair amount of science are well aware of the "religionist" nature of many contemporary physicists and astronomers. They directly inject their personal (and highly negative) philosophy into their so-called discoveries and so-called theories.  Many do have an agenda or agendas, plural, which becomes obvious in their written and oral communication.  Scientists were once much more open.  That is the true nature of a scientist.

That's a minority of scientists - they are just over-represented by the media. 

This is a really good point!  Yes.  Thank you!
I know I forget this often.

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Most just want to run their experiments and analyze their data.  And even if they inject their personal philosophies into their commentaries, it doesn't affect the actual work (in the hard sciences) - you can't inject a personal philosophy into an equation, and astronomical objects are what they are regardless of what anyone thinks.  If anything, it's an artifact of works of popular science, where you have presenters making crude analogies to try to explain something abstract and audiences taking precise, technical statements and ascribing meanings to them that no one intended.

Also good points.  And I agree that data is still the substance of the field.  I think, though, that in general too many scientists today (perhaps because the press wants "conclusions" or predictions from findings, or both) do offer inappropriate interpretations of the data, while separately speculating from data too insignificant to make projections.

Then there is the constant effort to convert theories (e.g., evolution) to fact.  I have also seen an increasing rush to formal acceptance of more recent theories than evolution, and I don't think that is an entirely media-driven movement. You and I probably disagree on the number of irresponsible scientists out there.  I.m.o., several per year are too many.