Author Topic: Baptism in case of miscarriage  (Read 21791 times)

Offline Rose

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2015, 08:22:01 PM »
Ok, this is a random thought but here goes...

Baptism of Desire by proxy- I'm thinking of St. Margaret Clithero, an English saint in the Reformation. She was pregnant when she was executed for the Faith. There was nothing she could have done to have her child baptised. She died a martyr, so would her child have been baptised by desire, by proxy?

Following on from that, and it is stretching the point a bit, but if you can have baptism of desire by proxy, could you have this for babies who are aborted, if someone other than the mother earnestly desires that the child could have the chance of baptism?

Just thoughts  :)
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Offline verenaerin

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2015, 08:32:21 PM »
Ok, this is a random thought but here goes...

Baptism of Desire by proxy- I'm thinking of St. Margaret Clithero, an English saint in the Reformation. She was pregnant when she was executed for the Faith. There was nothing she could have done to have her child baptised. She died a martyr, so would her child have been baptised by desire, by proxy?

Following on from that, and it is stretching the point a bit, but if you can have baptism of desire by proxy, could you have this for babies who are aborted, if someone other than the mother earnestly desires that the child could have the chance of baptism?

Just thoughts  :)

I hope so. I guess we won't know till the very end. I hope that the unbaptized babies are allowed to Heaven, maybe at the final judgement.
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2015, 02:11:09 AM »
Ok, this is a random thought but here goes...

Baptism of Desire by proxy- I'm thinking of St. Margaret Clithero, an English saint in the Reformation. She was pregnant when she was executed for the Faith. There was nothing she could have done to have her child baptised. She died a martyr, so would her child have been baptised by desire, by proxy?

Following on from that, and it is stretching the point a bit, but if you can have baptism of desire by proxy, could you have this for babies who are aborted, if someone other than the mother earnestly desires that the child could have the chance of baptism?

Just thoughts  :)

Execution of the mother = execution of the child in utero; as St. Margaret's willingness to be a martyr would then serve as entrusting the fate of her child to God for the purpose of being martyred herself (lest to save her child she deny Christ), it would be a baptism of blood by proxy of faith rather than baptism of desire by proxy solely; the desire is contained within the willingness to have one's blood shed for the purpose of confessing Christ.

As to your second point, we could ourselves desire that, and God willing it be so, but there is nothing to lend credence to such a belief. While it could be argued for the case of Catholic parents who lose a child to miscarriage, which itself is even a stretch (God willing it be less of one than we know), I find it hard to reconcile for all aborted babies. Where, exactly, does it stop? At some point we have to come to grips with Original Sin's consequences or else the teaching loses all weight.  :(
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2016, 01:03:01 PM »
I thought that baptism was a sacrament for those that are born. The babies that die in utero are never born and are not guilty of actual sin, although they were conceived with original sin. I do practice conditional baptism after miscarriage, but my real hope is in God's justice and mercy. Some people assert miscarried babies become fervent intercessors in heaven for their parents. Others assert they go to Limbo, which is described as a place of perfect natural happiness without being admitted to the Beatific Vision. Both these ideas are comforting and seem just to me, although the former seems more generously merciful to babies who cannot be baptized.

I don't see how the idea that miscarried babies go to heaven even without baptism leads to heresy, either universal salvation or restricting baptism to those over age of reason, for one big reason. All born persons are required to have the sacrament, but the sacrament cannot be administered to an unborn person. Unborn persons are therefore not bound to have baptism, unless and until they are born. God doesn't demand the impossible.

Also, my thoughts about aborted babies is that God, being just, would not offer the opportunity for repentance and an eternity in heaven to those who commit the murder of an unborn person, but send that unborn murder victim straight to hell with no chance of admittance to heaven and no hope for relief from unrelenting torment. I know God's ways are not our ways, but He is the One Who gave me an understanding of justice in the first place, and that would seem unjust.

I pray that this little one that I am carrying makes it to baptism, and lives a full and holy life, but if he should die in utero, I will be very grateful to have this thread and its links as resources. God bless!
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Offline Geremia

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2016, 01:13:00 AM »
I thought that baptism was a sacrament for those that are born.
Some were sanctified in the womb, like Jeremiah, St. John the Baptist (not to forget Our B.V.M., who was sanctified not just in the womb but ab initio).

See Summa III q. 68 a. 1 "Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?".
 
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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2016, 01:23:43 AM »
I thought that baptism was a sacrament for those that are born.
Some were sanctified in the womb, like Jeremiah, St. John the Baptist (not to forget Our B.V.M., who was sanctified not just in the womb but ab initio).

See Summa III q. 68 a. 1 "Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?".


The Angelic Doctor says: "It is essential to Baptism that some part of the body of the person baptized be in some way washed with water, since Baptism is a kind of washing, as stated above (Question [66], Article [1]). But an infant's body, before being born from the womb, can nowise be washed with water; unless perchance it be said that the baptismal water, with which the mother's body is washed, reaches the child while yet in its mother's womb. But this is impossible: both because the child's soul, to the sanctification of which Baptism is ordained, is distinct from the soul of the mother; and because the body of the animated infant is already formed, and consequently distinct from the body of the mother. Therefore the Baptism which the mother receives does not overflow on to the child which is in her womb. Hence Augustine says (Cont. Julian. vi): "If what is conceived within a mother belonged to her body, so as to be considered a part thereof, we should not baptize an infant whose mother, through danger of death, was baptized while she bore it in her womb. Since, then, it," i.e. the infant, "is baptized, it certainly did not belong to the mother's body while it was in the womb." It follows, therefore, that a child can nowise be baptized while in its mother's womb.
 
Reply to Objection 1: Children while in the mother's womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb."
If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.
 
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2016, 02:27:51 PM »
I thought that baptism was a sacrament for those that are born.
Some were sanctified in the womb, like Jeremiah, St. John the Baptist (not to forget Our B.V.M., who was sanctified not just in the womb but ab initio).

See Summa III q. 68 a. 1 "Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?".

Of course. But I was referring to the sacrament only, not the sanctification by the Holy Spirit by any other means.
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Offline Azelie

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2017, 09:13:22 PM »
I know this thread has died, but please forgive me a comment I would like to make.  One of my family members who has just been married a year had married a young woman that was not Catholic.  At Easter she was taken into the Church after her year of RCIA.  I saw a picture of her on that night, she had been baptized, by immersion, which I know is unusual in the Church, and the photo showed her in very wet robe with her very pregnant stomach.  Just a couple weeks later the baby boy was born.  I was just struck by the idea that the baptized woman had a very close to being born child within.  All I could think, was "awesome".  I wonder how that effects the baby?  Something else to wonder about.  Also, my daughter and son-in-law baptized their tiny miscarried baby with the conditional form.  I saw  the baby, it was very small, but intact.  It was barely an inch in size.  Some things are just a mystery and we don't get to know until later, but it is so hard not to wonder how it all works.
 
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2017, 11:20:44 PM »
I know this thread has died, but please forgive me a comment I would like to make.  One of my family members who has just been married a year had married a young woman that was not Catholic.  At Easter she was taken into the Church after her year of RCIA.  I saw a picture of her on that night, she had been baptized, by immersion, which I know is unusual in the Church, and the photo showed her in very wet robe with her very pregnant stomach.  Just a couple weeks later the baby boy was born.  I was just struck by the idea that the baptized woman had a very close to being born child within.  All I could think, was "awesome".  I wonder how that effects the baby?  Something else to wonder about.  Also, my daughter and son-in-law baptized their tiny miscarried baby with the conditional form.  I saw  the baby, it was very small, but intact.  It was barely an inch in size.  Some things are just a mystery and we don't get to know until later, but it is so hard not to wonder how it all works.

So sorry for mom and dad, and siblings if there are any. You probably wonder if child within also received the sacrament of baptism. I think not because the waters never touched the baby's head. But I'll bet it was so sweet, knowing the child was right there, front and center for mama's baptism. Best seat in the House of God.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 11:25:26 PM by Carleendiane »
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2017, 11:32:31 PM »
My little boy was born alive, baptized by a Catholic nurse, right in the operating room. I was not far enough along in the Faith to even know how to do it, yet the job got done, thanks be to God! Another one for the kingdom.
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