Author Topic: Baptism in case of miscarriage  (Read 22871 times)

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Thanked: 639 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 12:41:28 PM »
Yes, there's nothing wrong with doing a conditional baptism if there is doubt the baby is alive. I think the Church allows this for up to 3 hours after the apparent death of the person.

The form would be: "If you are alive, I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

Or if the miscarriage is so early that you doubt it is a human or just a bloody blob, you could say:

"If you are human and alive, I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."

Offline piabee

  • Mary Garden
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2411
  • Thanked: 446 times
  • flinty prose
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2013, 05:12:14 PM »
The form would be:

Citation, please.
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Thanked: 639 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2013, 08:32:02 PM »
The form would be:

Citation, please.
See this from the Ritual:
Quote
9. … if one is to be baptized conditionally (see below), the condition is expressed in these words: If you are not baptized, I baptize you in the name of the Father, etc.
Quote
21. One should see to it that every abortive fetus, no matter of what period, be baptized absolutely if it is certainly alive. If there is doubt about its being alive, it should be baptized conditionally.

22. A monster or abnormal fetus should in every case be baptized at least with the following expressed condition: If you are a human being, I baptize you, etc. When in doubt as to whether there is one or several persons in the deformed mass, one part is to be baptized absolutely, and the others each with the condition: If you are not baptized, I baptize you, etc.
Regarding point 21., it seems the conditional form "If you are not baptized…" nor "If you are a human being…" would be used, so I'm pretty sure it's valid to say "If you are alive…"
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 08:36:17 PM by Geremia »
 

Offline Dextimus

  • dexter; dexterius; dextimus
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
  • Regina Sanctorum Omnium, ora pro nobis!
  • Religion: Papist
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2013, 05:48:08 PM »
Formulas of conditional baptism

If not sure if baptized:
Si non es baptizatus, ego te baptizo...

If not sure if living:
Si vivus es, ego...

If not sure, we have clean water:
Si materia haec est sufficiens, ego...

If not sure we have all the body available:
Si haec pars est sufficiens, ego...

CIC (1917) 748: Monstra et ostenta semper baptizentur saltem sub conditione; in dubio autem unusne an plures sint homines, unus absolute baptizetur, ceteri sub conditione
If not sure if it is a man:
Si homo es, ego...
Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests behave like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious like religious. (Ven. Peter John Fulton Sheen)
 

Offline OCLittleFlower

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7738
  • Thanked: 1801 times
  • CALIFORNIA DEPLORABLE
  • Religion: Trad to the max!
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 02:17:58 PM »
Side comment -- when it comes to having "all the body available" does that mean that amputees are conditionally baptized if they convert post-amputation?
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

Если вы можете прочитать это, вы лучше.
 

Offline Dextimus

  • dexter; dexterius; dextimus
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
  • Regina Sanctorum Omnium, ora pro nobis!
  • Religion: Papist
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 04:06:14 PM »
Side comment -- when it comes to having "all the body available" does that mean that amputees are conditionally baptized if they convert post-amputation?

No. 
Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests behave like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious like religious. (Ven. Peter John Fulton Sheen)
 

Offline OCLittleFlower

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7738
  • Thanked: 1801 times
  • CALIFORNIA DEPLORABLE
  • Religion: Trad to the max!
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 04:08:36 PM »
Side comment -- when it comes to having "all the body available" does that mean that amputees are conditionally baptized if they convert post-amputation?

No.

What does it mean then?
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

Если вы можете прочитать это, вы лучше.
 

Offline Dextimus

  • dexter; dexterius; dextimus
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
  • Regina Sanctorum Omnium, ora pro nobis!
  • Religion: Papist
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 04:22:22 PM »
What does it mean then?

When you can see only a part of body and you are not sure if this part is joined to the rest (e.g. head). This conditional is to avoid simulation of sacrament.
Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests behave like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious like religious. (Ven. Peter John Fulton Sheen)
 

Offline OCLittleFlower

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7738
  • Thanked: 1801 times
  • CALIFORNIA DEPLORABLE
  • Religion: Trad to the max!
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 04:46:38 PM »
What does it mean then?

When you can see only a part of body and you are not sure if this part is joined to the rest (e.g. head). This conditional is to avoid simulation of sacrament.

Ahhh okay -- so as long as one definitely sees a head there is no need to apply that condition?
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

Если вы можете прочитать это, вы лучше.
 

Offline Dextimus

  • dexter; dexterius; dextimus
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 581
  • Regina Sanctorum Omnium, ora pro nobis!
  • Religion: Papist
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 04:55:46 PM »
Ahhh okay -- so as long as one definitely sees a head there is no need to apply that condition?

Sure. My friend, hospital chaplain from time to time does a baptism to miscarried babies which have e.g. 1 or 2 inches of length. At the first view you can see in a "red blend" only a tiny hand or leg, nothing more. So noone would start searching for its head before performing baptism. Heaven can't wait.
Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests behave like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious like religious. (Ven. Peter John Fulton Sheen)
 

Offline OCLittleFlower

  • Mary Garden
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7738
  • Thanked: 1801 times
  • CALIFORNIA DEPLORABLE
  • Religion: Trad to the max!
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 06:11:06 PM »
Ahhh okay -- so as long as one definitely sees a head there is no need to apply that condition?

Sure. My friend, hospital chaplain from time to time does a baptism to miscarried babies which have e.g. 1 or 2 inches of length. At the first view you can see in a "red blend" only a tiny hand or leg, nothing more. So noone would start searching for its head before performing baptism. Heaven can't wait.

Understandable.   :(
-- currently writing a Trad romance entitled Flirting with Sedevacantism --

Если вы можете прочитать это, вы лучше.
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Thanked: 639 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2014, 04:30:05 PM »
from the Roman Ritual:
Quote
A monster or abnormal fetus should in every case be baptized at least with the following expressed condition: If you are a human being, I baptize you, etc. When in doubt as to whether there is one or several persons in the deformed mass, one part is to be baptized absolutely, and the others each with the condition: If you are not baptized, I baptize you, etc.

Offline Chestertonian

  • The Stephen Hawking of SD
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 12485
  • Thanked: 5149 times
  • Eternal Gadfly
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2014, 04:53:22 PM »
Monster?  That's horrible
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"
 

Offline Geremia

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Thanked: 639 times
    • St. Isidore e-book library
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2014, 05:31:56 PM »
Monster?  That's horrible
Probably a better word could've been used to translate the Latin, but it is a medical term, according to the OED: "(Med.) a fetus, neonate, or individual with a gross congenital malformation, usually of a degree incompatible with life."

Offline Chestertonian

  • The Stephen Hawking of SD
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 12485
  • Thanked: 5149 times
  • Eternal Gadfly
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Baptism in case of miscarriage
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2014, 05:59:35 PM »
Monster?  That's horrible
Probably a better word could've been used to translate the Latin, but it is a medical term, according to the OED: "(Med.) a fetus, neonate, or individual with a gross congenital malformation, usually of a degree incompatible with life."

Perhaps in the archaic sense, but certainly not the colloquial sense.
"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"