Author Topic: Masoretic or Septuagint?  (Read 740 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Ecce Homo
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1308
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Abducted by aliens from Styx's "Come Sail Away"
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Masoretic or Septuagint?
« on: February 18, 2019, 07:25:48 PM »
I'm curious what y'all think about which of the Old Testaments is the superior version to use - Septuagint or Masoretic - the Septuagint being the Greek Old Testament, and the Masoretic being the Hebrew version which the Jews even today use.

On the one hand,
The Septuagint was the one that was clearly used by the Earliest Christians - all the Old Testament quotes in the New Testament do not reference the Masoretic Old Testament, but rather, the Septuagint equivalents.
For instance, if you look up the quote that's used in Saint Stephen's speech before he's martyred, you'll see that it doesn't at all match the Masoretic text.

Saint Stephen says:
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them" (KJV)

But when you look it up, you find this:
"You also carried Sikkuth your king and Chiun, your idols, the star of your gods, which you made for yourselves." (NKJV)

In the Septuagint:
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Raephan, the images of them which ye made for yourselves" (Sir Lancelot Brenton translation of the Septuagint)

It seems that, in fact, the Septuagint has preserved older variants of the Old Testament text to a greater degree than the Masoretic text.
Finally, the Septuagint text uses the numbering of the Psalms that the Vulgate uses.

On the other hand,
From what I know, the Vulgate is largely based on the Masoretic text, and there's a more consistent tradition and handing down of texts from the Israelites to the Jews today - unlike the Septuagint, which started with Hellenistic-Jews and died with them insofar as the Jewish maintaining of the Tradition of the Books are concerned.
It's also the far more influential text, with most English translations based on it. Even the Russian (Synodal version, not the NIV version) translation of the Bible is based on the Masoretic against the Septuagint.

What are your thoughts?

« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 07:30:42 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8753
  • Thanked: 3708 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 08:12:45 PM »
This post confuses me in a couple of ways: 1) you mentioned "Jews of today" at least twice as some type authenticity barometer, and 2) you cite examples from a protestant translation of Sacred texts. How are we here, Catholics in the tradition of the Faith of our Fathers, supposed to relate to you, a schismatic, citing heretics?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Ecce Homo
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1308
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Abducted by aliens from Styx's "Come Sail Away"
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2019, 08:53:50 PM »
What are you on about?

This is the Non-Catholic discussion board. If you cannot discuss things with “schismatics” or feel it’s a waste of time, then don’t bother posting.

And I chose the KJV / NKJV because, while it’s translation stems from multiple sources, it’s Old Testament is based on the Masoretic, and the New Testament - the Greek, and I know it is. It’s also marginally better than other translations like the NIV. The Douay Rheims and other “Catholic” Bibles tend to be strictly based on the Vulgate, which would defeat the purpose of citing it.


And while the Jews are no longer part of Israel (that’s the Church), the Old Testament came from the Israelites and the Jews, who are the direct descendants of the Israelites. My point is that there’s a continuous tradition insofar as it has an ethnic / cultural origin point and is still maintained by that ethnicity / culture. Maybe there’s benefit in that - for example, as there is cultural / linguistic nuance that would otherwise be lost in a foreign culture.

Specifically the Mizrahi Jews use the Masoretic, if you want to argue that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t Jewish.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 09:16:50 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline aquinas138

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1041
  • Thanked: 1036 times
  • Παναγία Τριάς, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς!
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 09:06:06 PM »
The Septuagint should be used by those ritual churches based upon it. Ditto the Vulgate and the Peshitta. That's pretty much the long and the short of my opinion on the matter!
O Mary most pure, golden censer that became the tabernacle of the uncontainable divinity, in you the Father was well pleased; in you the Son did dwell; and the Holy Spirit, by overshadowing you, revealed you to be the Birthgiver of God.
 
The following users thanked this post: TheReturnofLive

Offline St.Justin

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2815
  • Thanked: 1236 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 09:50:07 PM »
The Septuagint translated into Greek in 250 BC. The Masoretic dates from 500 AD. St. Jerome did not use the Masoretic text because it didn't exist. He used the Hexpela of Origen for his Vulgate. He was fluent in 7 languages and did most of his work while living in Holy Land. The St. knew what he was doing. I'll stick with the Septuagint, Vulgate and the Church.
 
The following users thanked this post: Heinrich, Lynne, Josephine87

Offline Heinrich

  • Steig mal auf den Berg hinauf
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8753
  • Thanked: 3708 times
  • Gott, wende Dich zu uns und gib uns neues Leben
  • Religion: römisch-katholisch
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 10:17:21 PM »
What are you on about?

This is the Non-Catholic discussion board. If you cannot discuss things with “schismatics” or feel it’s a waste of time, then don’t bother posting.

And I chose the KJV / NKJV because, while it’s translation stems from multiple sources, it’s Old Testament is based on the Masoretic, and the New Testament - the Greek, and I know it is. It’s also marginally better than other translations like the NIV. The Douay Rheims and other “Catholic” Bibles tend to be strictly based on the Vulgate, which would defeat the purpose of citing it.


And while the Jews are no longer part of Israel (that’s the Church), the Old Testament came from the Israelites and the Jews, who are the direct descendants of the Israelites. My point is that there’s a continuous tradition insofar as it has an ethnic / cultural origin point and is still maintained by that ethnicity / culture. Maybe there’s benefit in that - for example, as there is cultural / linguistic nuance that would otherwise be lost in a foreign culture.

Specifically the Mizrahi Jews use the Masoretic, if you want to argue that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t Jewish.

My apologies for rashness. I was not aware there was a nom Catholic forum.

Modern "jews" use the Talmud as a primary.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Ecce Homo
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1308
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Abducted by aliens from Styx's "Come Sail Away"
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 10:41:36 PM »
What are you on about?

This is the Non-Catholic discussion board. If you cannot discuss things with “schismatics” or feel it’s a waste of time, then don’t bother posting.

And I chose the KJV / NKJV because, while it’s translation stems from multiple sources, it’s Old Testament is based on the Masoretic, and the New Testament - the Greek, and I know it is. It’s also marginally better than other translations like the NIV. The Douay Rheims and other “Catholic” Bibles tend to be strictly based on the Vulgate, which would defeat the purpose of citing it.


And while the Jews are no longer part of Israel (that’s the Church), the Old Testament came from the Israelites and the Jews, who are the direct descendants of the Israelites. My point is that there’s a continuous tradition insofar as it has an ethnic / cultural origin point and is still maintained by that ethnicity / culture. Maybe there’s benefit in that - for example, as there is cultural / linguistic nuance that would otherwise be lost in a foreign culture.

Specifically the Mizrahi Jews use the Masoretic, if you want to argue that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t Jewish.

My apologies for rashness. I was not aware there was a nom Catholic forum.

Modern "jews" use the Talmud as a primary.

No problem.
 
The following users thanked this post: Heinrich

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1467 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 11:09:30 AM »
And while the Jews are no longer part of Israel (that’s the Church), the Old Testament came from the Israelites and the Jews, who are the direct descendants of the Israelites. My point is that there’s a continuous tradition insofar as it has an ethnic / cultural origin point and is still maintained by that ethnicity / culture. Maybe there’s benefit in that - for example, as there is cultural / linguistic nuance that would otherwise be lost in a foreign culture.

Specifically the Mizrahi Jews use the Masoretic, if you want to argue that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t Jewish.

There's no "continuous tradition" because there was no "Jewish" monolith at the time of Christ and the Apostles. The most "orthodox" Rabbinical Judaism of today has its continuity with the religion of the Pharisees and the "mainstream" worship of the Secodn Temple, but on what is your implicit claim based that this religion represents the tradition of the Patriarchs, of Moses, or of the First Temple other than the claim of the Rabbinical Jews themselves? 

Counter-proposition: early Christianity was the continuation of that tradition.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 11:29:44 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
The following users thanked this post: Heinrich, Josephine87

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1467 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 11:20:56 AM »
I'm curious what y'all think about which of the Old Testaments is the superior version to use - Septuagint or Masoretic - the Septuagint being the Greek Old Testament, and the Masoretic being the Hebrew version which the Jews even today use.

Where the Masoretic and Septuagitn disagree, the Septuagint. Because the Masoretic was for certain culled and corrupted over centuries. Pity the Septuaginst is corrupted. Thank God we aren't a "people of the Book".

Quote
Saint Stephen says:
"Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them" (KJV)

Yes, a good one, because Stephen is essentially accusing the "orthodox" Jews represented by the members of the Sanhedrin of being worshippers of Moloch. Note how he stops with Solomon's Temple and never even mentions the Second Temple as being a house of God.

Quote
On the other hand,
From what I know, the Vulgate is largely based on the Masoretic text, and there's a more consistent tradition and handing down of texts from the Israelites to the Jews today - unlike the Septuagint, which started with Hellenistic-Jews and died with them insofar as the Jewish maintaining of the Tradition of the Books are concerned.

And a consistent tradition of "correcting" the texts which the Septuagint wasn't subject to after it was written.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 11:31:13 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline MilesChristi

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3845
  • Thanked: 894 times
  • Santiago Matamoros, Ora pro Nobis
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 11:35:18 AM »
It really would depend on who you believe on which text is more faithfully passed down. The Septuagint is a translation (which creates opportunity for error) but it is a translation of Hebrew manuscripts much older than the Masoeretic text.
The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
    It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
    It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
    And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil;
    And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
    There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
    Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs —
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
    World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2104
  • Thanked: 1467 times
  • Religion: Creed-affirming, sacramental, Yahweh-worshipping Christian Gnostic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 02:22:11 PM »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Ecce Homo
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1308
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Abducted by aliens from Styx's "Come Sail Away"
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 05:32:39 PM »
Eastern Orthodox source:

https://preachersinstitute.com/2015/08/31/masoretic-text-vs-original-hebrew/

I’m interested in what Catholics think - because Eastern Orthodoxy as practiced today very clearly has a culturally Greek / Byzantine starting point (this even applies to Churches founded before Constantinople exerted it’s cultural influence and overwrote different cultural - even liturgical - traditions - like the Georgian Orthodox Church - mainly due to how influential and even forced in some cases Byzantine chauvinism was).

Considering that Catholics tend to more often than not use the Vulgate as their source, and thus they are more out of the sphere of the debate of choosing between the two - I’m curious to hear a perspective that wouldn’t be as biased to their own culture, considering the views toward the Bible on this regard should be more or less the same.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 05:37:47 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Ecce Homo
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1308
  • Thanked: 495 times
  • Abducted by aliens from Styx's "Come Sail Away"
  • Religion: Doubting Roman Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 05:56:05 PM »
I’ve decided to fancy up this edited post with an asterisk. *
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 05:59:53 PM by TheReturnofLive »
 

Offline Michael Wilson

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 8413
  • Thanked: 6845 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Masoretic or Septuagint?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 02:33:04 PM »
From what I have read, the Masorets' work was one of "uniformization" of the Hebrew text; they had saved three copies of the Old Testament from the destruction of the Temple, and when they went about making a new copy, any variations in the text were decided by which two out of the three versions were in accord. Not really a critical method.
Some have charged the Jews with corrupting the ancient manuscripts, especially as regards to the Messianic prophecies; but an article I read from the Traditional Dominicans, affirmed that while its true that some of the Messianic prophecies in the Septuagint are clearer than in the related texts in the Massoretic; there are also some Messianic prophecies in the Massoretic that are clearer that their counterpart in the Septuagint. 
Its also true that St. Jerome did not base his translation of the O.T. On the Massoretic text, but on older Hebrew versions, plus the Hexapla and the Septuagint.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
The following users thanked this post: Josephine87, TheReturnofLive