Author Topic: Josef Seifert: Francis Has “Rejected Christianity”, Turned God into a "Relativis  (Read 1478 times)

Offline Non Nobis

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That's the only legitimate question here. Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Exactly. 

Why?

I can go farther than that - why didn't God create all of us, angels and men, in heaven where we would freely adore God but absolutely would not sin?  These are ultimately God's questions to answer.  But doesn't God's becoming man (the evil: the Devil, the fall... and the good: Christ becoming man and dying for us) have much to do with this?  And also, giving men and angels  the power to choose evil or good, and become more like God, in the exercise of their free will (rather than just beholding God in heaven, in a way just a spectator).  Free will and the love/choice of God is that wonderful of a good, that it makes permitting an evil worth it.  God brings good out of permitted evil.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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I can go farther than that - why didn't God create all of us, angels and men, in heaven where we would freely adore God but absolutely would not sin? 

This was basically Quaremare's answer.  He said something like "God should have arranged things so that the angels didn't rebel".

But if God had created us, and the angels, so that we "absolutely would not sin", then He would have had to create us without Free Will, would He not?  What is Free Will without the freedom to choose evil?

Can human beings, and angels, exist without Free Will?

Quote
And also, giving men and angels  the power to choose evil or good, and become more like God, in the exercise of their free will (rather than just beholding God in heaven, in a way just a spectator).

Yes, God could have created beings without the capacity to choose either good or evil and presumably evil would have remained as pure potential without ever being actualised. But what would those created beings - angels and men - be like?

Quote
Free will and the love/choice of God is that wonderful of a good, that it makes permitting an evil worth it.  God brings good out of permitted evil.

Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

God bringing some kind of 'greater good' out of an ocean of suffering is a much repeated explanation.  But it also helps, I find, to acknowledge that evil is inevitable in a world of created rational beings and that the only alternative, the only way, that the world could exist without evil having been actualised, is if God had not created angels and men.

A world without evil can only be a world without angels and men.  That's the deal.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:33:37 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

This is what I say. Freedom, and freedom to act out of itself, is intrinsic to the nature of an "I" and it's transcendental self-identity and real unity. There is no "I" without it, human or otherwise.

Yes, I'm sure some will whittle away the essential meaning of "human" to the point that one can have "humans" with free will and "humans" without it, but this is game of semantics. Biblically, a "human" is an imago dei and possesses this freedom.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 06:19:41 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Is Free Will a wonderful good?  Or is it simply a faculty that we, as human beings, could not exist without.

This is what I say. Freedom, and freedom to act out of itself, is intrinsic to the nature of an "I" and it's transcendental self-identity and real unity. There is no "I" without it, human or otherwise.

Yes, I'm sure some will whittle away the essential meaning of "human" to the point that one can have "humans" with free will and "humans" without it, but this is game of semantics. Biblically, a "human" is an imago dei and possesses this freedom.

Agreed.  It is impossible to be human without the freedom to choose, which has to mean the freedom to choose evil.  When the the abortionist asserts that principle by stating the 'pro-choice' arguement, the question then becomes - is it your choice to follow God's law or not?  And some will inevitably say "not".  The existence of the capacity to choose isn't the issue.  It's the actual choice that matters.

I find it quite consoling to view things in this way.  In creating rational creatures with Free will, God knew that a some/many would choose evil, thereby making evil a real and active force in the world. And He went ahead anyway.  That's the deal, and if it wasn't, we wouldn't exist.

The problem of evil isn't God's. It's ours.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Xavier

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As we know, the purpose of our life is that we may learn to know and especially love God above all things; and, for this, freedom is an absolute necessity, since inanimate creatures without freedom can't love God.

The Saints in Heaven have free will perfected both by divine grace and human effort, hearts perfectly united to the Sacred Heart, as the Immaculate Heart always is. Now, for free will to be perfected, a certain period of trial and testing, as it were, is fitting, since we thereby learn to responsibly exercise freedom and desire the Supreme Good above all things; when grace makes known to us the possibility of perfect union with this Supreme Good, so much the more ought we to ensure our hearts and our affections rest solely in God, to serve and love Him as He is in Himself, and in His creatures for His sake. In this way, we become like Him. This likeness is perfect in the Saints who consequently do not sin.

Moreover, as St. Thomas loves to say, the slightest good of grace is greater than the greatest good of nature. Thus, one single perfect act of contrition or love of God for His own sake from us, being supernatural is a greater good than the whole visible creation. In some way, as with all meritorious acts that draw down grace from Heaven, in union with Christ, it mysteriously contributes to creation itself according to mystics. At any rate, each and every good work done in grace merits a special reward in heaven, as we are taught by the Church and Christ in the Gospel.

And merit too is impossible without freedom. Those who respond holily to evil, forgiving enemies, praying for persecutors etc - as Christ Our Lord did, and His Saints and martyrs in union with Him - merit much more and Heaven is filled with brightness and glory through such heroic acts, which even if it stood alone, would seem to fulfill the purpose of creation. Thus, freedom is needed. Of course, freedom should be responsibly exercised, comformable to God's Law, and to our ultimate end, which is perfect union of Love with Him.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 02:46:11 AM by Xavier »
.Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

Daily Morning Offering: O my God, in union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary,  I offer Thee the Precious Blood of Jesus from all the Altars  throughout the world, joining with It the offering of my every thought, word, and action of this day. I desire to gain every Indulgence and Merit I can, offering them, together with myself, to Mary Immaculate, Whom Thou hast appointed the dispenser of the merits of Thy Precious Blood, especially by means of this Scapular  [Here kiss your Brown Scapular] that She may best apply them to the interests of Thy Most Sacred Heart. Amen.

Consecration to Our Blessed Mother: My Queen, my Mother! I give myself entirely to Thee, and to show my devotion to Thee I consecrate to Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve, Wherefore, good Mother, as I am Thine own, keep me, guard me, as Thy property and possession." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/morning-offering.htm

"I am the Lady of the Rosary. Pray the Rosary (i.e. 15 decades; 5 decades is a part of the Rosary) every day to obtain Peace for the World." ~ Our Lady of the Rosary of Fatima.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it.

But Michael, surely the Angels and Blessed in Heaven have free will because without it they wouldn't be angels or human in the first place.   The Blessed in Heaven have chosen, of their own free will, to follow God's Law and have attained Heaven as a result of that choice which they consistently acted on during their lives on Earth.  Their free will remains, without which they would not be rational creatures capable of having made that choice.  It's just that their Free Will is now perfectly aligned with God's Will.

Sorry, but how could God, in theory, have created angels humans with free will and then arranged things so that neither sinned?  And if God could have done this, then why didn't He? 

Because there is no free will without the freedom to choose evil, and there can be no angels or men without free will, which means a will that is free to choose evil.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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I don't claim to understand how it all works out; but somehow it does.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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I don't claim to understand how it all works out; but somehow it does.

Sorry, but it doesn't.   

If God could have arranged things so that men and angels could have free will but never choose to sin and therefore never be damned, then surely He would have done so.  Simply arguing that God wanted to bring a greater good out of not arranging things in this way is inadequate on its own.

Either the will is free or there is no Free Will.  God 'arranging things' implies God restricting or modifying the will in some way, and God chose not to do this because when He says He's giving His creatures Free Will, He means it. The 'greater good' argument then applies but only once it is established that the God given freedom to choose is what makes us human.  It is how we exercise that freedom that determines what kind of humans we become.

« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:19:32 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Santantonio

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Within the parameters of space and time, ages and angels, men and animals, etc..
I do not see how it is propitious to split philosophical hairs concerning theodicy and
distinctions between the Father's (Trinity's) so-called positive will and "ontological" will;
it is better consider only the difference between active and permissive will,
as God acts or permits according to His divine plan as it works in real time until the "end".

Considering then the diffferences between active and permissive, the joint statement issued
plainly and strongly states it is God's active will (not even his punishment for original sin)
that dictates pluralism.

The pluralism and the diversity of religions, colour, sex, race and language are willed by God in His wisdom, through which He created human beings.

and therefore: "the imposition of a cultural way of life that others do not accept."..."must be rejected

The statement therefore rejects Original Sin, God's punishments, God's Incarnation, etc...
every prime Scriptural essence. It is worse than heresy. It is total apostasy.
 

Offline GloriaPatri

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I would like to simply point out that those posters who are saying that free will necessitates the ability to choose evil are either a) Stripping God of His free will, or b) Denying that God's nature is equivalent to the nature of the Good because He could, hypothetically, choose to do evil.

Furthermore, they are implying that either the saints in heaven no longer have free will, or that they are capable of sinning while experiencing the Beatific Vision.

The teaching of the Church has been fairly consistent: freedom of will requires the ability to do good. It does not require the ability to do evil, which is a weakness of free will, not a strength.
 
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Offline Santantonio

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Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 11:43:52 AM by Santantonio »
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it.

But Michael, surely the Angels and Blessed in Heaven have free will because without it they wouldn't be angels or human in the first place.   The Blessed in Heaven have chosen, of their own free will, to follow God's Law and have attained Heaven as a result of that choice which they consistently acted on during their lives on Earth.  Their free will remains, without which they would not be rational creatures capable of having made that choice.  It's just that their Free Will is now perfectly aligned with God's Will.

Sorry, but how could God, in theory, have created angels humans with free will and then arranged things so that neither sinned?  And if God could have done this, then why didn't He? 

Because there is no free will without the freedom to choose evil, and there can be no angels or men without free will, which means a will that is free to choose evil.

I agree. It makes sense to me: the Beatific Vision involves an enternal union with God, and for a free spiritual being to enjoy that union, it has to make the choice to enter into it. I think these things are intrinsic to what Heaven and these beings are; there's no such thing as creating an angel or human in the state of such union.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.
 

Offline Santantonio

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Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.

Yes it does. Just suspend as I described, to your quote: "knowing he would"