Author Topic: Josef Seifert: Francis Has “Rejected Christianity”, Turned God into a "Relativis  (Read 1132 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

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I would like to simply point out that those posters who are saying that free will necessitates the ability to choose evil are either a) Stripping God of His free will, or b) Denying that God's nature is equivalent to the nature of the Good because He could, hypothetically, choose to do evil.

I for one am saying neither of these things.  Can you explain your claims? For example, how could God, even hypothetically, choose to do evil?  It's unthinkable. 

Having free will only means that the rational creature is free to choose evil.  It doesn't mean that he has to.  The saints are in heaven because they have demonstrated by their choice for God and their subsequent lives lived in honour of God and His laws, that their wills are firmly for the good.  That's why they're Saints.  They still have free will, but their wills have been proved to be with God and not against Him. 

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Furthermore, they are implying that either the saints in heaven no longer have free will, or that they are capable of sinning while experiencing the Beatific Vision.

I'm not saying this either.  I've said repeatedly that the saints in heaven still have free will, and that because their wills are perfectly aligned with God's, it is impossible that they would choose, of their own free wills, to sin.

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The teaching of the Church has been fairly consistent: freedom of will requires the ability to do good. It does not require the ability to do evil, which is a weakness of free will, not a strength.

Okay, fair enough. The choice for evil is a weakness of free will and that the teaching of the Church.  Thank you.

But this raises yet another question.  Why did God give angels and men free will that contained this weakness? 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.

Yes it does. Just suspend as I described, to your quote: "knowing he would"

No, it doesn't. Telling me God can "supend his omniscience" does not tell me why God would create the Devil knowing what he would do. And the problems with your contention aside, both metaphysical and the fact that the claim God does not foreknow the evils of the world caused by the Devil would contradict the de fide doctrine of predestination, there's is absolutely no logical or ontological conflict between creatures having free will and God having foreknowledge of what they will, making such an act unnecessary at best but also reckless.
 

Offline Santantonio

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Why make the Devil at all knowing he would, of his own free will, become what he is.

Being Omnipotent, God has the ability to suspend His Omniscience when He pleases, in this case
to allow Free Will for angels and men. Christ is an example of this. Mk 13:32, Mt 24:36
Not only can God suspend His Omniscience in particular instances, He can even adjust His Omniscience so as to not conflict with Free Will of His creatures. So there you have it. Either way, or both, depending upon His Will.

That unfortunately doesn't answer the question, which wasn't the how but the why.

Yes it does. Just suspend as I described, to your quote: "knowing he would"

No, it doesn't. Telling me God can "supend his omniscience" does not tell me why God would create the Devil knowing what he would do. And the problems with your contention aside, both metaphysical and the fact that the claim God does not foreknow the evils of the world caused by the Devil would contradict the de fide doctrine of predestination, there's is absolutely no logical or ontological conflict between creatures having free will and God having foreknowledge of what they will, making such an act unnecessary at best but also reckless.

I never said there was a conflict. He can be all-knowing when He chooses as a Divine prerogative.
And yes, even if He chooses to know a being will betray Him, that doesn't countermand Free Will.
 

Offline GloriaPatri

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God can't suspend His omniscience for the simple reason that the Divine Nature cannot change. God is necessarily omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent. These aren't properties that God can just turn on and off at will.
 
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Offline Prayerful

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Offline Non Nobis

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The Church teaches that the Angels and Blessed in Heaven retain the faculty of free will, but that by the fact of their being admitted to the Beatific vision, they freely and infallibly chooses to love God. Freedom to err, sin or reject God, is a defect of free will; Our Lord, Our Blessed Mother both had free will, yet never sinned.  So God theoretically could have arranged things in such a way that both Angels and men would have had both free will and not have sinned. Yet, when Angels and men sin, they do so freely and in spite of God's assisting grace. So Heaven is not free, and creatures have to earn their place there. God truly does will the salvation of His creatures and provides more than sufficient means to each and every one of them so that they may attain it.

But Michael, surely the Angels and Blessed in Heaven have free will because without it they wouldn't be angels or human in the first place.   The Blessed in Heaven have chosen, of their own free will, to follow God's Law and have attained Heaven as a result of that choice which they consistently acted on during their lives on Earth.  Their free will remains, without which they would not be rational creatures capable of having made that choice.  It's just that their Free Will is now perfectly aligned with God's Will.

Sorry, but how could God, in theory, have created angels humans with free will and then arranged things so that neither sinned?  And if God could have done this, then why didn't He? 

Because there is no free will without the freedom to choose evil, and there can be no angels or men without free will, which means a will that is free to choose evil.

I agree. It makes sense to me: the Beatific Vision involves an enternal union with God, and for a free spiritual being to enjoy that union, it has to make the choice to enter into it. I think these things are intrinsic to what Heaven and these beings are; there's no such thing as creating an angel or human in the state of such union.

If a baptized baby dies, he enters into the Beatific Vision as an intelligent human being with free will loving God (his will aligned with God's), even though he made no personal choice on earth.  He is saved by Sanctifying Grace, even without his own choice of good or evil, since he was not yet capable of that.

I don't see it as metaphysically impossible for God to create a man or angel in the Beatific Vision from the start.  But (as for as we know) God has never chosen to do so.  "Why doesn't He - to prevent all evil?" is a question only He can finally answer.

I think that when a man is not in the Beatific Vision his vision is occupied with many things that are not God, so his will can move to other things. If he chooses something in preference to God, he does evil.  If he chooses God above all else, I think he does what is the grandest thing a man can do.  Here is where I see the wonder of free will. A baptized baby is pure and innocent, but he cannot personally choose what a martyr chooses. God can choose for some to be capable of grander good than others (a  martyr vs a baptized baby) but both are good. 

Free will is worth permitting evil because with it we can do the grandest possible thing on earth that befits a man made in the image of God: loving God in preference to all others.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 02:39:22 AM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline Xavier

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Many infants can be and are saved purely gratuitously, without personal merits. The ordinary course for adults however requires merits.

When it comes to what theology calls theodicy or why God's Goodness temporarily permits evil to exist before banishing it forever, different possible explanations are legitimate. As Pope Pius IX said once, we will only understand these things fully in light of the beatific vision. Now, we strive to increase in faith, by believing most firmly that God is Goodness Himself. Then we shall know by sight.

The only really legitimate reason imo to seek to know God more and more each day by growing in faith is that we may love Him better. Our understanding of the Infinite God is always limited, but theology "does indeed when it seeks persistently, piously and soberly, achieve by God's gift some understanding, and that most profitable," (Vatican I) when we seek after Him longingly as the Saints did.

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The teaching of the Church has been fairly consistent: freedom of will requires the ability to do good. It does not require the ability to do evil, which is a weakness of free will, not a strength.

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Okay, fair enough. The choice for evil is a weakness of free will and that the teaching of the Church. Thank you.

But this raises yet another question.  Why did God give angels and men free will that contained this weakness?

Not just a weakness, GloriaPatri, but as the Lord says, "Jesus answered them: Amen, amen I say unto you: that whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin." (Jn 8:34) Sin darkens our understanding and hardens our will, especially if we do not quickly repent of it. Yet, without the combat with sin, without the struggle of a Christian warrior against evil and the devil, there is no virtue and no victory. "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer." says the Lord, "Behold, the devil will cast some of you into prison that you may be tried: and you shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful until death: and I will give thee the crown of life." (Rev 2:10)

The Church reminds us that the more we strive to grow in grace and faith and all the virtues by good works, the greater the crown each of us will have in heaven, if only we are "faithful until death". That is what God and His Church expect of all of us. Evil will ultimately be banished from creation, but without it being temporarily permitted, there would not be such merit. Death considered in itself is evil, but God turned even it to a good purpose when by dying for our sins in an excess of Infinite Love, He purchased eternal life for all of us. Persecution is in itself an evil, but when holy Martyrs gladly and heroically bear it, they obtain much grace for the Church and the world. Without St. Stephen, according to St. Augustine, who prayed for his persecutors to be forgiven, we would not have St. Paul. Christian life is like that. Not to be an easy compromise with the world in which we live and which we must help save, but to be apart from evil, use the instances it occasions to grow in grace, and love God above all.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 04:37:15 AM by Xavier »
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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Josef Seifert: Francis Has “Rejected Christianity”, Turned God
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2019, 03:39:11 PM »

I see the sophists are out and about to canonize Francis's statement.
 
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Offline Arvinger

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He'll slip through it by saying he meant God's "permissive will."

You were exactly right:

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The Pope explicitly stated that Bishop Schneider could share the contents of their exchange on this point. “You can say that the phrase in question on the diversity of religions means the permissive will of God,” he told the assembled bishops, who come from predominantly Muslim regions.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bishop-schneider-extracts-clarification-on-diversity-of-religions-from-pope-francis-brands-abuse-summit-a-failure?fbclid=IwAR2bU9BYwgsVplP6sF1JcVVVwjdQ0uzKMcRccPJZ6PQy6CkLToox0QEhEOU
 

Offline Non Nobis

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Isn't it a little late now?  Typical Pope Francis.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?