Author Topic: being a trad in a liberal family  (Read 1980 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2019, 03:21:11 AM »
Our Lord teaches us clearly we must eat His Flesh and drink His blood if we wish to have life in us. He says that if we do, we will abide in Him and He in us. We will live by Him as He lives by the Father. If we refuse to believe Him and to eat of Him, we cannot have life. St. Paul confirms this by teaching that someone who eats without discerning the Body has sinned against the Lord's own Body and Blood. These clearly show Holy Mass and the Holy Eucharist are not a "symbol", and no Christians before the Protestant rebellion thought so. The Fathers unanimously taught it right from the beginning, taught by the Lord and His Apostles. The Church unanimously taught it for 15 centuries. It was only with Luther and Calvin that we begin to see many, all with disagreements and infighting among themselves, denying the dogma of the Real Presence in a thousand different ways. Today, most Protestants don't believe in it. The Fathers and Doctors teach that opposing Holy Mass and the Holy Sacrifice is the work of the devil and of anti-christ, who strives by heretics to destroy the Mass. This is what is written in the Prophets also, especially in Daniel, where it is said antiChrist will have power against the daily Sacrifice, which is the Mass. In Malachi, it is said that in the New Covenant, the universal Sacrifice, the Holy Mass, will be offered from dawn to dusk in every place from the rising of the sun to its setting. All this is fulfilled in the Catholic Church. Protestants should retract their errors and return to the Church. If they truly believed the Lord's Word, they would believe it is His Body and His Blood.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/a.html
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

God has often worked miracles in His Eucharist throughout Church history, to confirm the weak and convert the erring to the Faith.

Also, the Daily and SuperSubstantial Bread (the right translation, as you can read in the Vulgate and St. Jerome, of St. Matthew 6:11- see https://catholicism.org/give-us-this-day-our-supersubstantial-bread.html) that Our Lord Himself taught us to petition for also includes the Bread of Life, the Lord in the Eucharist.

"As the prayer proceeds, we ask and say: 'Give us this day our daily bread.' This can be understood both spiritually and simply, because either understanding is of profit in divine usefulness for salvation. For Christ is the bread of life and the bread here is of all, but is ours. And as we say 'Our Father,' because He is the Father of those who understand and believe, so too we say 'our Bread,' because Christ is the bread of those of us who attain to His body. Moreover, we ask that this bread be given daily, lest we, who are in Christ and receive the Eucharist daily as food of salvation, with the intervention of some more grievous sin, while we are shut off and as non-communicants are kept from the heavenly bread, be separated from the body of Christ as He Himself declares, saying: 'I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. If any man eat of my bread he shall live forever. Moreover, the bread that I shall give is my flesh for the life of the world.' Since then He says that, if anyone eats of His bread, he lives forever, as it is manifest that they live who attain to His body and receive the Eucharist by right of communion, so on the other hand we must fear and pray lest anyone, while he is cut off and separated from the body of Christ, remain apart from salvation, as He Himself threatens, saying: 'Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.' And so we petition that our bread, that is Christ, be given us daily, so that we, who abide and live in Christ, may not withdraw from His sanctification and body.", Source: St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Lord's Prayer, 252 A.D., chapter 18:
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 

Online Davis Blank - EG

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2019, 11:15:10 PM »
"To repeat my opinion, I never said the bread and wine are not transformed into the BBSD of Christ.
I said it can be understood in different ways and that is what Church history shows."

If bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ, which must be believed to be Catholic, how can this be understood in different ways? 


It is a large topic of many facets and distinctions across the Christian experience.
To be clear, one can be the only practicing Catholic remaining in a thoroughly well catechized family of many siblings -- each one having received an identical education (including the same orthodox, traditionalist teachers), yet most no longer practicing and leaving others wondering whether a sliver of faith remains. 

None of my siblings are practicing.  Like me, they were taught one truth, not "several facets" of it.  There may be a variety of reasons why my siblings act like agnostics, but it wouldn't be because of "several facets and distinctions."  None of them chose, later, a different religion and began practicing that.  Inexplicably, they simply abandoned the faith of their childhood.  Secular liberal politics has become their replacement religion.

It is certainly a mystery to me, but I will tell you that I saw the seeds of this in my childhood.  In other families I also sometimes see a spectrum of fidelity, practice, and devotion, and similarly, it puzzles me.  I do not consider myself any more moral/holy than my siblings, but I do not hesitate to identify as Catholic, whereas I believe that whenever they get admitted to a hospital, they never register as Catholic.  I can't comprehend that.

Supposedly, God implants the grace of Faith more in some family members than in others, but that is a great mystery to me, since it is de fide dogma, which I believe, that God wants to draw all creatures to Himself, and if so, why would He distribute the grace of Faith unevenly, so that it would be easier for some to remain in the true Church than it would be for others?  Again, I saw this even in childhood.  My sister was never as devout or as interested in matters of religion as I was, yet we received the same sacraments in the same locations, within traditional rites and within the same solid doctrine.

I can understand the reverse:  why in some families all remain practicing Catholics regardless of periods of doubt. The common denominator I see in those families is a pair of devout parents who reliably taught and practiced the faith.  I wonder if loss of faith is related to things like divorce, one parent not being Catholic or practicing his/her Catholicism, or other divisions and disappointments in parental leadership.  Yet again, I'm in the same family.  Whatever disappointments I experienced were not ones strong enough to lead me from God.  If anything, they led me more toward God.

One way to think about situations like this, where nearly all family members fall away, is that its hard to build something up and maintain it, whereas its a cakewalk to tear it down.  It takes enormous cooperation, trust, capital, experience and man-hours to build a skyscraper, but it only takes a few bombs to bring it down.  A perfectly sculpted sandcastle might require many years of experience to bring forth, but can be leveled by a mere wave.  A young man can be raised to walk the straight and narrow way, but have one friend show him hardcore pornography on his cellphone and then he's addicted.  A young woman could be raised to be a good wife and mother, but fall into the trap of a bad man, of which there are many, and lose her way for decades.

The devil has the easy job.  Its easy to destroy.  There are a million simple ways to wreck things.
 
When society is as disastrous as it is today, the ways in which a good person could fall away are manifold.  It's akin to building a sand castle on a low lying sand bar.  Society used to be more cohesive and collectively vigilant against the vices.  Not so today.  Vice is paraded everywhere and thus falling away is the easiest thing to do.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2019, 12:55:06 AM »
That is all true, Davis, but that does not describe the dynamics of families where I've noticed very different responses to the same external influences.  Or, let's put it this way, as an example:  Other people didn't entice my sister out of Catholicism; rather, she sought to escape from all authority, natural and supernatural.  And of course she found willing allies in that endeavor.

My siblings came of age before evil was accessible on the Internet, but it doesn't matter.  In every age, the Catholic layperson and the Catholic religious have faced The World, The Flesh, and the Devil, sometimes as ferociously as today.  I think the difference today, from previous eras, is the massive abandonment of authority by the Church and by so much of secular society.  People in authority are willing to surrender to their subjects -- either out of weakness (lack of fortitude) or out of human respect.  This goes along with your theory that it is much more difficult to maintain a vulnerable structure than it is to dismantle it.  Since our leaders, in and out of or families, are so unmotivated to exercise authority, the devil is glad to take charge and faces weak opposition.

I wasn't really trying to get off track in this manner, however -- wax philosophical about societal trends, which derails the thread.  Rather, I was speaking of the gift of faith as a child grows up  -- before adolescence, before early adulthood, etc.  My priest tells me that God's grace is always available.  Always.  Of course this is also a dogma.  If we want/need grace to combat temptation, grow in virtue, and resolve our unbelief, we need only ask, despite maybe needing to ask often after setbacks and to respond to graces in order to obtain more of them.

The home environment, the substance of formation (intellectual and spiritual), and the cultural milieu --all three combined-- are still insufficient to ensure that a Catholic layperson keeps the faith, even in the most ideal family setting. The fourth element, on which the rest depends, is the response (decision) of the layperson to persevere in prayer.  This is the only way to ensure that one's faith will prevail despite periods of doubt.  What I cannot explain is why some members of prayerful families, who have not yet been exposed to bad influences, are not interested in praying -- seem to entirely lack that impulse.
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2019, 02:25:43 AM »
Another interesting family dynamic is having a liberal, loves to argue endlessly, novus ordo Francis-can-do-no-wrong priest (did I mention he was in the Legion of Christ?) in a trad family.  The poor trad Catholic mom... and other trad relatives.

It is better than someone who is totally fallen away.  But maybe more complicated, in some ways.

I've probably said too much already. . .
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:38:24 AM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline Traditionallyruralmom

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2019, 07:13:14 PM »
Years ago, a good Canon from the Institute of Christ the King gave a sermon that encouraged us to ask daily for the graces of a lively gift of faith.  I heard another sermon online from an FSSP priest that told us to pray 3 Hail Marys day and night for our children's holiness and purity.

I pray daily and at every mass and every adoration that my children are disposed to receive the graces of holiness, purity and a lively gift of faith, and that, through the hands of our blessed mother, that she would obtain and bestow these graces in abundance upon my children. 

Besides love, a good formation and a happy Catholic home, thats about all we can do.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2019, 11:46:39 AM »
TRM, I love simple formulas like that.  We do 3 Hail Marys at the end of each Rosary for my childrens purity.

Another formula to get to Heaven.
Mass
Rosary
Scapular
Stations of the Cross

So when I hear questions of this validity, that being illicit, the Pope not wearing red shoes and jurisdiction I just remember these formulas.

I'm so basic I'm almost flatline.  Hopefully it works :)
 
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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #51 on: April 17, 2019, 12:48:50 AM »

it's hard to pin myself as more conservative or more liberal than my family because they (while all being Jews) are all over the place politically.  My brother was feeling the Bern, while my sister voted for Trump.  my sister isn't pro life or anything... she just has a more fiscally conservative mindset and is pretty anti immigration.  my mom and i don't talk about politics much anymore.  we used to spar a lot on religion and politics earlier in my conversion, but it just got ugly.  we are rational beings, and we are emotional beings, and sometimes a person can go from reasonable to hyperemotional in the blink of an eye and that's my mother.  she also took it as a personal insult that I rejected the religion she raised me with.  I won't lie, i'm sure there are probably emotional reasons I can't even put my finger on that factored in to my migration away from the Jewish religion.  your parents are the models God gives you for showing you His love, and the way my parents modeled that love is...complicated.  I cannot say it was all bad, but it was not all good and my relationship with them, my father in particular, still shapes the way I view God in a way....and my mother most likely influences how I view Mary. 

growing up, my siblings and i would bicker and my mother would say to us, "You don't have to attend every argument you're invited to!"  Now whenever she gets into it with me about religion and politics, and it's clear that she's thinking with her emotions and i'm not going to have any fruitful dialogue, I just tell her, "Mom, you did say that I didn't have to attend every argument I'm invited to. 

I used to have a really hard time with being the only Catholic in my family.  My wife's family is culturally Catholic, but it's all for show.   we have cut out a lot of her relatives because they are abusive and toxic.  so even though she's not the "only Catholic," I think the rest of them live their lives like there's no God watching over them even though they have the same padre pio statues in their homes

I do appreciate that it keeps me in a state where I am always learning more.  very often, I get questions about my faith and it forces me to address the opposing views and that has a way of reinforcing why I chose to be Catholic in the first place.  The hardest thing is the papal situation... i can't blame people for losing faith in church authority.  I am right there with them.  the only thing that keeps me Catholic is the question, "To whom shall we go?"  Where else are we going to find the words of eternal life?  Judaism doesn't offer that--they are only concerned in the here and now.  For me, the here and now is rather unpleasant.  Judaism never had an answer to my anxiety about mortality.  Catholicism has not eradicated it completely, but there is at least some hope for the afterlife, if there is hope in anything at all

being the only Catholic in my own family of origin is inconvenient in so many little ways it's hard to list them all.  It would be so much easier for ME if they would all convert.  I used to do a lot of serious prayer for my mom's conversion and the conversion for my siblings and things just got worse.  I remember hearing a conversation with a protestant friend about what he calls "missionary frienship."  basically, it's being a person's friend because you have the ulterior motive to save their soul.  someone asked him, "But what if they never convert?  what if they end up going to hell?  well, then I might as well enjoy their company now because it's the last time I'll see them, my friend said.

It got me thinking about my family and how truly limited my time may be with them.  I ought to be interested in their conversion primarily for the sake of THEIR salvation, not for the sake of my own convenience here on earth. Do i want them to convert so that I don't have to feel awkward about not being OK with my son participating in a seder?  do i want them to convert so I don't have to grow a spine and set boundaries with my family on what is and is not accceptable for my family as catholics?  Do i want them to convert so that my extended family reinforces my religious beliefs and I don't have to test them or question them?  ultimately, if I really love my family, the many little frustrations in enduring their not-catholic-ness can be offered up for their salvation, which is the ultimate good I should desire for them. 


"I am not much of a Crusader, that is for sure, but at least I am not a Mohamedist!"
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #52 on: April 17, 2019, 04:21:42 AM »
A very thoughtful, informative, reflective, and honest post, Ches.

Despite the marked differences between your situation and that of a cradle Catholic, not to mention that of a cradle trad, I think most practicing traditional Catholics have more in common than we realize, whatever our starting points.  That is, we are a ghetto within a minority.  (Some irony for you with the word, ghetto. LOL, things haven't changed much!)

I find your story and the complexity of your situation quite interesting.  I particularly resonate with the difficulty discussing politics, and often just listening to discussions about it while remaining silent. I've come to believe, having heard similar stories in posts and PM's over my years on Catholic forums and even on one secular one, that politics has become the Third Rail of modern family life, but especially for traditional Catholics.  I mean, I can talk more comfortably about the divisions in the modern Church, my irritation with the status quo in Rome -- to my non-practicing but highly modernistic Catholic family than I can talk about U.S. politics or even global politics.  (The "I" word especially; oh wait, I guess the politically correct initial is "M,"  not  "I.") 

I can bring up Catholic restoration, and have, without starting a fight or raising eyebrows.  To my siblings, the modern Mass -- if anyone's going to go to anything liturgical at all -- is the only game in town.  Yet they've become interested when I talk about the Latin Mass, to the point where they even wanted to know where to find one!  I don't even care that for my sister, the interest would be in being "different" or even "pioneering."  Just the fact that Mrs. Modern is open and friendly to the idea that I go to something so ancient is pretty remarkable, coming from someone so "progressive" (I have come to hate that word) politically -- so anti-traditionalist in the secular sphere. 

I think that the divisions in most Catholic families reflect the divisions and divisiveness in society at large. The media is not the only catalyst for it; other institutions have played significant parts in destruction of the family unit. However, I hold the media most responsible for politicizing virtually every facet of American life, and that has been very destructive to all kinds of personal relationships, including but not limited to family life.  It has intruded into work relationships and the most everyday encounters between people on the street.
 

Offline Miriam_M

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Re: being a trad in a liberal family
« Reply #53 on: April 17, 2019, 04:35:37 AM »
I want to add to my comments about Ches' post that I think that many of us non-converts worry as much as you do, Ches, about the salvation of the souls of our family members.  I worry very much about my sister and my brothers, even though the Church does not hold us responsible for these independent souls.  A non-practicing Catholic, whether still barely a nominal believer or an outright apostate, is surely not invincibly ignorant.  If that Catholic was raised within tradition, he or she had many resources of grace within reach -- much more than your unconverted family members.

I know that the Church does not hold you or me responsible for the conversion or reversion of family members.  She looks upon our responsibility as one of general evangelization, relative to our opportunities with them, just as we might have similar opportunities with adults not related to us but whom we see often.  Yet I understand your emotional reaction because I have it as well.