Author Topic: The All-Seeing Eye  (Read 515 times)

Offline St.Justin

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2019, 06:36:36 PM »
There were Gnostic Jews before Christianity (Kabala) of which freemasonry is a continuation of. The re God is "JAH = Jahweh, the God of the Hebrews. BUL = Baal, the ancient Canaanite fertility god associated with 'licentious rites of imitative magic'. ON = Osiris, the Ancient Egyptian god of the underworld. Baal, of course, was the 'false god' with whom Jahweh competed " All of this is very plainly spoken of in "Doctrine and Morals" Albert Pike.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 07:40:31 PM by St.Justin »
 

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2019, 08:25:50 PM »
Let's stick to the main question. What is the origin of the All Seeing Eye. Is it Christian or not? Was it invented by pagans or freemasons?
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2019, 08:44:21 PM »
Let's stick to the main question. What is the origin of the All Seeing Eye. Is it Christian or not? Was it invented by pagans or freemasons?

I already posted it dates back to the Egyptian dynasties but was also used n other ancient religions.
 

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2019, 09:11:58 PM »
Let's stick to the main question. What is the origin of the All Seeing Eye. Is it Christian or not? Was it invented by pagans or freemasons?

I already posted it dates back to the Egyptian dynasties but was also used n other ancient religions.
So it should not be used in Churches then?
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 09:15:34 PM »
OP "Is the All-Seeing Eye a christian symbol stolen by Freemasonry or something invented by the enemies of the Church?"

"So it should not be used in Churches then?" Is this then a follow on?
 

Offline Philip G.

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2019, 09:52:21 PM »
Here is something to think about as a possible meaning.  In the animal kingdom, there are animals that have eyes close together, and there are animals that have eyes far apart.  This has as significant impact on depth perception and behavior.  For the animals with their eyes spread far apart, in order for them to perceive depth, they have to move.  That is why a shark circles its prey, and a lizard does push ups.  An eye in a triangle seems to suggest a single eye that does not move.  But, without a companion eye to perceive depth, that is a useless eye.  The human head also seems to suggest a sphere, as opposed to a triangle.  So, it really doesn't appear to be a good symbol if there is merit in this theory. 

I thought about this years ago when I contemplated the telescope.  Telescope use is a stationary one eyed activity.  With that said, I am not surprised that the user confesses to observe the opposite of that observed by those who uses two eyes to observe.  If you ask me, who uses two eyes when observing movement in the cosmos, the sun and the moon circles me.  To the one eyed observer, it is the opposite.  Is there a connection?  I do not know.  But, the animal kingdom suggests something relevant.
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 10:45:08 PM »
Let's stick to the main question. What is the origin of the All Seeing Eye. Is it Christian or not? Was it invented by pagans or freemasons?

I already posted it dates back to the Egyptian dynasties but was also used n other ancient religions.
So it should not be used in Churches then?
It is a favorite tactic of Jehovah witness and many others to claim we use images and dates of pagan religions which is true but they claim that makes us pagans which is not true. Not sure if this post is inline with the OP but thought you might find it an interesting point. It is good to know your enemies.
 

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2019, 12:01:14 AM »
OP "Is the All-Seeing Eye a christian symbol stolen by Freemasonry or something invented by the enemies of the Church?"

"So it should not be used in Churches then?" Is this then a follow on?
It seems so.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 12:15:01 AM »
OP "Is the All-Seeing Eye a christian symbol stolen by Freemasonry or something invented by the enemies of the Church?"

"So it should not be used in Churches then?" Is this then a follow on?
It seems so.
So I see it as no different than the date for Christmas and the Easter Bunny and the Egg and the Christmas tree etc. I believe that in the wisdom of the Church these things were adapted to a Christian meaning for various reason. One of which could be to give Christians living in a pagan world the opportunity to consider celebrating at the same time and the same imagery as their Pagan neighbors but with things that were easily adapted to a Christian meaning and probably helped bring over pagans to Christianity. There are many stories out there as to the whys and wherefores to these adaptations. Here is one that they say we stole from Egypt adapted to Jesus and Mary, https://www.pinterest.com/pin/499969996107798533/
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2019, 04:01:32 AM »
There were Gnostic Jews before Christianity (Kabala) of which freemasonry is a continuation of. The re God is "JAH = Jahweh, the God of the Hebrews. BUL = Baal, the ancient Canaanite fertility god associated with 'licentious rites of imitative magic'. ON = Osiris, the Ancient Egyptian god of the underworld. Baal, of course, was the 'false god' with whom Jahweh competed " All of this is very plainly spoken of in "Doctrine and Morals" Albert Pike.

Yeah, but Albert Pike and Masons are full of crap. Not that he’s lying, but he passing on crap and making it up as he goes along. Their stating something doesn’t make it so.  And what is generally known as “Kabbalah” and the Zohar itself are products of the Middle Ages, coming out of Southern France and Spain. Moreover, it’s butchered and misunderstood Kabbalah. Sure, there are points of similarity between “gnostic” cosmology and Jewish Hekhalot literature and Merkabah mysticism, but these don’t go much further than shared Neoplatonic ideas, an emanationist cosmos, a journey through the spheres like Dante’s Divine Comedy, and an anthropomorphic vision of God shared with Christians.  The notion of a continuity between “gnostic Jews” and Freemasonry is absurd and an invention of Masons.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2019, 04:14:08 AM »
I’m just not afraid of the word “pagan” or accusations of “paganism” being thrown at Catholics. Because that accusation comes in the tradition of the Pharisees and a false notion that Rabbinical Judaism is the representative and continuation of the religion of Moses, David and Isaiah. If one does think that this “Orthodox” Judaism was the faith of the Hebrews before the destruction of Solomon’s Temple, and that the Pharisees of Jesus’ time were keepers of the Mosaic tradition, then I’m fine, as an indication of the fact that there is a wall of separation between their faith and mine, with being a “pagan” and “idolatrous” iconography, worship of Mary, angels and saints, “superstitious” ritual and mysticism.
 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 06:26:15 AM »
There were Gnostic Jews before Christianity (Kabala) of which freemasonry is a continuation of. The re God is "JAH = Jahweh, the God of the Hebrews. BUL = Baal, the ancient Canaanite fertility god associated with 'licentious rites of imitative magic'. ON = Osiris, the Ancient Egyptian god of the underworld. Baal, of course, was the 'false god' with whom Jahweh competed " All of this is very plainly spoken of in "Doctrine and Morals" Albert Pike.

Yeah, but Albert Pike and Masons are full of crap. Not that he’s lying, but he passing on crap and making it up as he goes along. Their stating something doesn’t make it so.  And what is generally known as “Kabbalah” and the Zohar itself are products of the Middle Ages, coming out of Southern France and Spain. Moreover, it’s butchered and misunderstood Kabbalah. Sure, there are points of similarity between “gnostic” cosmology and Jewish Hekhalot literature and Merkabah mysticism, but these don’t go much further than shared Neoplatonic ideas, an emanationist cosmos, a journey through the spheres like Dante’s Divine Comedy, and an anthropomorphic vision of God shared with Christians.  The notion of a continuity between “gnostic Jews” and Freemasonry is absurd and an invention of Masons.

Whether or not there is an historical & material connection between such schools of thought is almost beside the point however. We have something similar with the Carmelite Order, where some mock the Carmelites' claim to have existed since the time of the prophet Elijah and his ancient disciples who congregated on Mt. Carmel. Well, even if the Carmelite Order as an historical organisation came into being in its current institutional form in the middle ages, spiritually this is indeed a society of disciples of the prophet Elijah who live a contemplative life. Similarly, even if these various gnostic groups have only a fabulous or imaginary historical connection, they are indeed connected on the spiritual plane as they are all founded on the same demonic hierarchy. Simon Magus is said to be their main representative during the apostolic era.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 07:26:53 AM »
Let's stick to the main question. What is the origin of the All Seeing Eye. Is it Christian or not? Was it invented by pagans or freemasons?

I already posted it dates back to the Egyptian dynasties but was also used n other ancient religions.
I'm not sure this is correct. True, there was an eye symbol in ancient Egypt, and other eye symbols in other religions. But were all these the same symbol? It's possible that each religion came up with them independently, i.e. there is no connection between them.

However, I do see another parallel between the 'all-seeing eye' and the Egyptian 'eye' imagery. This is only a guess:
Whereas the physical human eye is a passive organ (it receives sensory data from what it sees, but it does not exert any sort of power over what it sees), the ancient Egyptians may have believed that the eye was active, i.e. that it did exert power over other things (which would be why the Egyptian verb jrj, depicted with the eye hieroglyph, has all sorts of active connotations such as 'to do' and 'to make'). This is probably somehow connected to the superstitious belief in the 'evil eye' found in many cultures, but I have no idea. Regardless, my point is that the Egyptians probably thought of the eye as active.
But consider the 'all-seeing eye', which is also called the 'eye of providence'. Perhaps it signifies providence. But providence is active, not receptive. The word literally means "to see to" (from pro- "through" and videre "to see"). It does not mean "to foresee" (passive connotation), but "to see to" (active connotation). Because the will of God governs all things, unlike the human eye which sees other things but which does not have power over those other things.



So I see it as no different than the date for Christmas and the Easter Bunny and the Egg and the Christmas tree etc. I believe that in the wisdom of the Church these things were adapted to a Christian meaning for various reason. One of which could be to give Christians living in a pagan world the opportunity to consider celebrating at the same time and the same imagery as their Pagan neighbors but with things that were easily adapted to a Christian meaning and probably helped bring over pagans to Christianity. There are many stories out there as to the whys and wherefores to these adaptations. Here is one that they say we stole from Egypt adapted to Jesus and Mary, https://www.pinterest.com/pin/499969996107798533/
This is all debatable.
1.) The date of Christmas might actually have been on December 25th. Nobody knows for sure.
2.) The 'Easter egg' might be pagan or at least have been influenced by pagan symbolism, but there doesn't seem to be much conclusive evidence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg#History
3.) The 'Easter Bunny' is Lutheran in origin. Some people think it's derived from pagan legend, but no such legend is attested. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Bunny#Alleged_association_with_%C4%92ostre
4.) The 'Christmas tree' is also Lutheran. It probably grew out of earlier traditions, some of which were pagan and others Christian. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree#Possible_predecessors
5.) The 'Isis and Harpocrates' imagery is similar to the 'Virgin and Child' imagery, but seeing as Mary and Jesus are historical persons, it's pretty clear that the latter is not derived from the former. (Also, some of the alleged parallels are outright false. Egyptians did not believe that Isis was a virgin, that Harpocrates was born on December 25th, that he was crucified, etc.)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 08:15:27 AM by Daniel »
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2019, 07:32:28 AM »
Except it isn't in this case. I've listed the general similarities, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them. Gnostics insist, at the core of their beliefs, that the material is evil and the creation of an evil demiurge, sometimes identified with Yahweh, and that secret knowledge is needed to escape it.  The material being evil, Yahweh being evil, and, insofar as the Christian teachings are not secret, secret knowledge being needed for salvation, is irreconcilable with Christianity; Neoplatonic metaphysics and a cosmos of emanations are, in general, not, except to some philosophical dogmatists who think everythign that isn't Thomism is some weird pagan heresy. The Kabbalists, while steeped in some form of the latter, did not propose the former things, even though they did propose the existence of secret techniques by application and practice of which one could encounter the creator; that's not to say there aren't things in forms of Kabbalism which are totally irreconcilable with Catholicism.

The Freemasons unequivocally worship the demiurge of this physical world as the supreme God, which puts them at odds with the ancient Gnostics.
 

Offline martin88nyc

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Re: The All-Seeing Eye
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2019, 10:48:17 AM »
Daniel, the Christmas tree was not a lutheran invention.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/st-boniface-and-the-christmas-tree

Quote
Today we celebrate the feast of St. Boniface (680–754), known in Church history as the Apostle to the Germans. Boniface is regarded as “probably the greatest missionary since St. Paul” for his extensive travels and successful evangelization efforts in modern-day Germany.[1] While he is well known as a great bishop and evangelizer, Catholic legend, based on actual historical events, also holds that Boniface is the founder of the use of a Christmas tree to celebrate the birth of the Christ Child.

The story of the Christmas tree begins in England, where the very young Winfrid decided to enter a Benedictine monastery over the objections of his parents. Winfrid grew in holiness and piety but yearned to leave the monastery and bring the light of Christ to the pagan Germans just as the monks had brought the Faith to England a century earlier. Winfrid heard reports that Pope Gregory II (r. 715-731) had sent missionaries to Bavaria in 716 and decided to travel to Rome to become a missionary to the Germans. Pope Gregory was delighted at the arrival of the eager Winfrid and after a period of time commissioned him to preach the Gospel in the regions of Thuringia, Bavaria, Franconia, and Hesse. In recognition of his special missionary commission the pope also changed Winfrid’s name to Boniface.

The newly named monk travelled to Hesse (central Germany) in 721 and “with his tireless activity, his gift for organization, and his adaptable, friendly, yet firm character” achieved great success, including the conversion of the twin chieftains Dettic and Deorulf.[2] Boniface also established Benedictine monasteries throughout his area of evangelization, including the great monastery of Fulda in 744.[3] News of his great achievements reached Rome, where he was recalled by Pope Gregory to provide a status report. Impressed and pleased with Boniface’s efforts, Gregory consecrated him archbishop for all Germany east of the Rhine (without a specific episcopal seat) and placed his territory under the pope’s jurisdiction. Imbued with this new authority and pontifical mandate, Boniface returned to Germany in 723.

Boniface spent the rest of his life evangelizing the areas of modern Germany and parts of the Netherlands. He also became a friend of the Frankish court and helped reform and reorganized the Church in that area. From his missionary travels, Boniface knew that in winter the inhabitants of the village of Geismar gathered around a huge old oak tree (known as the “Thunder Oak”) dedicated to the god Thor. This annual event of worship centered on sacrificing a human, usually a small child, to the pagan god. Boniface desired to convert the village by destroying the Thunder Oak, which the pagans had previously boasted the God of Boniface could not destroy, so he gathered a few companions and journeyed to Geismar.

His fellow missionaries were scared and fearful that the Germans might kill them, so they balked when they reached the outskirts of the village on Christmas Eve. Boniface steadied the nerves of his friends and as they approached the pagan gathering he said, “Here is the Thunder Oak; and here the cross of Christ shall break the hammer of the false god Thor.”[4] Boniface and his friends arrived at the time of the sacrifice, which was interrupted by their presence. In a show of great trust in God and born from a desire to enkindle the fire of Christ in the German pagans, Boniface grabbed an axe and chopped down the Thunder Oak of mighty Thor.

The Germans were astounded. The holy bishop preached the Gospel to the people and used a little fir tree that was behind the now felled oak tree as a tool of evangelization. Pointing to it he said,


“This little tree, a young child of the forest, shall be your holy tree tonight. It is the wood of peace… It is the sign of an endless life, for its leaves are ever green. See how it points upward to heaven. Let this be called the tree of the Christ-child; gather about it, not in the wild wood, but in your own homes; there it will shelter no deeds of blood, but loving gifts and rites of kindness.”[5]

Awed by the destruction of the oak tree and Boniface’s preaching, the Germans were baptized.

Boniface continued his missionary efforts into old age when in 754, he left for a trip to Frisia with fifty monks. Their work was successful and many pagans agreed to receive baptism. When the appointed time came to celebrate the sacrament, a large armed crowd of pagans approached the missionaries. Knowing his time to die was at hand, Boniface discouraged his followers from fighting and said, “Cease my sons, from fighting, give up warfare for the witness of Scripture recommends that we do not give an eye for an eye but rather good for evil.  Here is the long awaited day; the time of our end has now come; courage in the Lord!”[6] The ferocious pagan attack left Boniface and his fellow companions dead and celebrated as martyrs for the Faith.

His later biographer, Othlo, recalled Boniface’s deep love for the people who he endeavored for so long to bring to Christ:

The holy bishop Boniface can call himself father of all the inhabitants of Germany, for it was he who first brought them forth in Christ with the words of his holy preaching; he strengthened them with his example; and lastly, he gave his life for them; no greater love than this can be shown.”[7]

In the centuries that followed, the Catholic tradition of using an evergreen tree to celebrate the birth of Jesus spread throughout Germany, and German immigrants in the eighteenth century brought the custom to the New World. Although there are many stories, legends, and myths surrounding the founding of the Christmas tree, including the claim that the custom originated with Martin Luther, there is only one story rooted in a real person and a real event: Boniface, converter of the Germans, who destroyed Thor's mighty oak.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 
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