Author Topic: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children  (Read 1137 times)

Offline TheReturnofLive

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 274
  • Thanked: 65 times
  • Saint Augustine, pray for me, a sinner!
  • Religion: Eastern Orthodox inquirer
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2019, 12:40:39 PM »
The children of Fatima didn't beat themselves, they used nettle to hurt themselves.

Still, they are inflicting self-harm.

So did many saints recognised by West and East.

The difference is that children are not monks.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Thanked: 548 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2019, 12:42:52 PM »
The children of Fatima didn't beat themselves, they used nettle to hurt themselves.

Still, they are inflicting self-harm.

So did many saints recognised by West and East.

The difference is that children are not monks.

Fair enough, but they are human beings and mortification of the flesh is not an intrinsic evil. Since the children are canonised saints, going by Roman Catholic views, thier PTSD did more good than harm in the long run.

Unless one doesn't believe in Hell and the afterlife and is attached to this physical reality.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Thanked: 548 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #62 on: February 05, 2019, 12:53:01 PM »
In the good old Germanic lands, we used to do this with Krampus Night before the feast of St. Nicholas. And fairy tales. You'd be amazed at how not psychologically damaging terrorising the hell out of little children is in the long run. Just compare the generation of Millennials with those that went before them.

Since conjuring demons is an act of exorcism basically forbidden to the laity by canon law, if one is an oddball like me who actually believes in that sort of thing, we can't go that route, but I'd rather show this to them than have them see it for real someday.



The real thing, even if it doesn't appear visually, is much worse.

 
The following users thanked this post: Graham, Maximilian, Xavier, Josephine87

Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1267 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #63 on: February 05, 2019, 12:54:15 PM »
Regardless if you found it as a hoax, or perhaps even a delusion done by Satan, and your Church has allowed you to reject it, your Church declared it still as legitimate and worthy of veneration, which necessarily implies that any morality or dogmatic teaching which comes from it will be beneficial to the soul, if not leaving no effect on the soul.

Correct.

Quote
When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm

Quote
Therefore, the Catholic Church has stated that the idea of the Theotokos showing children the literal torments of Hell, such that they were traumatized, with one child self-flagellating, is a morally and dogmatic acceptable story which - if not harmful to the soul, is beneficial to the soul. After all, can Rome approve devotions which cause one to sin and fall away from God?

Right.  That doesn't mean I believe all the details came directly from the Theotokos, nor does the Church authority demand I do.

Quote
Illusions connected with private revelations have been explained in the article CONTEMPLATION. Some of them are at first thought surprising. Thus a vision of an historical scene (e.g., of the life or death of Christ) is often only approximately accurate, although the visionary may be unaware of this fact, and he may be misled, if he believes in its absolute historical fidelity. This error is quite natural, being based on the assumption that, if the vision comes from God, all its details (the landscape, dress, words, actions, etc.) should be a faithful reproduction of the historical past. This assumption is not justified, for accuracy in secondary details is not necessary; the main point is that the fact, event, or communication revealed be strictly true. It may be objected that the Bible contains historical books, and that thus God may sometimes wish to reveal certain facts in religious history to us exactly. That doubtless is true, when there is question of facts which are necessary or useful as a basis for religion, in which case the revelation is accompanied by proofs that guarantee its accuracy. A vision need not guarantee its accuracy in every detail.


 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3879
  • Thanked: 1267 times
  • Religion: Catholic (Byzantine)
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #64 on: February 05, 2019, 01:07:02 PM »
While I'm obviously not partaking in this specific debate, I found this worth posting:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/couple-and-teen-arrested-for-death-of-boy-7-after-punishing-him-over-memorizing-bible-verses

Just shows how secularized our government has become and how persecuted Christians and Christian parents are for living out their Christian values - who is the State to step in and interfere with Godly Christian parents teaching Bible verses to their children and using physical punishment just like the Bible says.  Learning Bible verses is serious stuff, much more so than worrying about hypothermia, since the soul is more important than the body.  And worse yet, other kids won't fear their parents once they see the government can step in and punish or save them from so-called "abuse" which is in reality the righteous wrath of God visited on the children through the parents.
/sarc
 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Thanked: 548 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #65 on: February 05, 2019, 01:30:53 PM »
While I'm obviously not partaking in this specific debate, I found this worth posting:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/couple-and-teen-arrested-for-death-of-boy-7-after-punishing-him-over-memorizing-bible-verses

Just shows how secularized our government has become and how persecuted Christians and Christian parents are for living out their Christian values - who is the State to step in and interfere with Godly Christian parents teaching Bible verses to their children and using physical punishment just like the Bible says.  Learning Bible verses is serious stuff, much more so than worrying about hypothermia, since the soul is more important than the body.  And worse yet, other kids won't fear their parents once they see the government can step in and punish or save them from so-called "abuse" which is in reality the righteous wrath of God visited on the children through the parents.
/sarc

Because a single chip just couldn't be big enough.

 

Offline Kreuzritter

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 685
  • Thanked: 548 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #66 on: February 05, 2019, 01:38:13 PM »
While I'm obviously not partaking in this specific debate, I found this worth posting:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/couple-and-teen-arrested-for-death-of-boy-7-after-punishing-him-over-memorizing-bible-verses

Just shows how secularized our government has become and how persecuted Christians and Christian parents are for living out their Christian values - who is the State to step in and interfere with Godly Christian parents teaching Bible verses to their children and using physical punishment just like the Bible says.  Learning Bible verses is serious stuff, much more so than worrying about hypothermia, since the soul is more important than the body.  And worse yet, other kids won't fear their parents once they see the government can step in and punish or save them from so-called "abuse" which is in reality the righteous wrath of God visited on the children through the parents.
/sarc

Yes, and the psychopathic father and mentally retarded mother are clearly saved by our reasonable hope that Hell is empty. I mean, if one actually believes in such superstitions as devils and whatnot being more than a metaphor like the story of the loaves and fishes is per Bergoglian  papal magisterium. So everyone wins.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 01:39:54 PM by Kreuzritter »
 

Online awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2057
  • Thanked: 807 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #67 on: February 05, 2019, 06:58:03 PM »
As you are a Catholic, I question how you deal with the fact that the Virgin Mary showed the children of Fatima Hell, and they were acting almost traumatized by it, to the point one of the children started self flagellating.

I don't believe the entire story of Fatima.

Regardless if you found it as a hoax, or perhaps even a delusion done by Satan, and your Church has allowed you to reject it, your Church declared it still as legitimate and worthy of veneration, which necessarily implies that any morality or dogmatic teaching which comes from it will be beneficial to the soul, if not leaving no effect on the soul.

Therefore, the Catholic Church has stated that the idea of the Theotokos showing children the literal torments of Hell, such that they were traumatized, with one child self-flagellating, is a morally and dogmatic acceptable story which - if not harmful to the soul, is beneficial to the soul. After all, can Rome approve devotions which cause one to sin and fall away from God?

And you'll have to wrestle with your own statements thus, in asserting the Virgin Mary as a bully, whose actions necessitate a lack of compassion.

The Church did not declare as worthy of belief the vision of Our Lady showing the Fatima children Hell.

The vision of Hell is contained in the first part of the Fatima Secret which Sr Lucy didn't reveal until 1941 in her Third Memoir.

The Canonical Enquiry into Fatima, which concluded in 1930, found only the apparitions which took place in the Cova da Iria in 1917 to be worthy of belief.  Sr Lucy did not reveal the contents of the First and Second Secrets to the Canonical Enquiry, despite being under oath.  Therefore the First and Second Secrets have not been approved by the Church.

Sr Lucy witheld crucial information from the Church during the Enquiry.  The narrative that has been spun around Fatima fails to acknowledge the limits of the Church's approval of Fatima, and makes claims for Sr Lucy's prophetic abilities that don't stack up. If you read her diaries you will discover that she didn't reveal many of her 'prophecies' until after the events had taken place.


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
The following users thanked this post: Josephine87

Online awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2057
  • Thanked: 807 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #68 on: February 05, 2019, 07:14:42 PM »
Here is Sr Lucy, in the Introduction to her Third Memoir, written in 1941, explaining that she is about the reveal the First and Second Secrets for the first time.  The Canonical Enquiry into Fatima concluded in 1930.

Quote

T H I R D   M E M O I R

I n t r o d u c t i o n

We have seen that the two previous Memoirs were written at the suggestion of the Bishop of Leiria and Father Fonseca. This manuscript also was written by Lucia, not on her own initiative but at the request of another person. It happened like this. Two editions of the book “Jacinta” were published, in May and October, 1938, respectively. But when the Silver Jubilee Year of 1942 was drawing near, the publication of a new edition was under consideration. It was felt that Lucia could also make a valuable contribution to this third edition.

The Bishop, Dom José, informed Lucia that Dr. Galamba would visit her, as he wanted to ask her further questions about Jacinta’s life.  Sister Lucia felt that it would be necessary to disclose the first two parts of the secret of July, 1917, in order to describe the inner life of Jacinta. Therefore, she deemed it essential to make a report on these two parts of the secret, before she could complete her account of Jacinta.

Rev. Dr. Galamba did not meet Lucia on this occasion. She had, however, been thinking about this matter already, as early as the end of the previous July, when the Bishop requested her to write this account. She completed the writing on the 31st ot August, and it was sent to the Bishop of Leiria without delay. What Sister Lucia says in the foreword to this account may well be supplemented by the following, which she wrote in her letter to Father Gonçalves:

“His Excellency the Bishop wrote to me about a forthcoming interrogation by Dr. Galamba. He requested me to recall everything I could remember in connection with Jacinta, as a new edition of her life is about to be printed. This request penetrated to the depths of my soul like a ray of light, giving me to know that the time has come to reveal the first two parts of the secret, and thus add two chapters to the new edition: one about hell, and the other about the Immaculate Heart of Mary. But I am still in doubt, since I am reluctant to reveal the secret. The account has already been completed, but I hesitate as to whether I should send it off or throw it into the fire. I do not know yet what I am going to do.”
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf

Sr Lucy didn't reveal the contents of the First and Second Secrets until 1941.  They have not been approved by the Church.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2019, 07:16:30 PM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline mikemac

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2739 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2019, 11:02:50 PM »
Therefore the First and Second Secrets have not been approved by the Church.

Yet the Church claimed they revealed the Third Secret in 2000.  Why would they bother if they hadn't been approved.  :rolleyes:
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier, TheReturnofLive

Online awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2057
  • Thanked: 807 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2019, 04:35:00 AM »
Therefore the First and Second Secrets have not been approved by the Church.

Yet the Church claimed they revealed the Third Secret in 2000.  Why would they bother if they hadn't been approved.  :rolleyes:

Why wouldn't they bother?  Your point isn't relevant.  The facts speak for themselves.  Sr Lucy admits in her diaries that i) she witheld the Secrets from the Canonical Enquiry even while under oath, and ii) she was revealing the Secrets for the first time in 1941.

The facts of Fatima contradict the narrative that has been spun.  If you are particularly attached to the narrative, as so many others are, and the narrative is an illusion, it is those responsible for the false narrative that you must address.

In her Fourth Memoir, Sr Lucy admits to her silence at the Canonical Enquiry, even while under oath. (p173)

Quote

Whenever I was interrogated, I experienced an interior inspiration which directed me how to answer, without either failing in truth or revealing what should remain hidden for the time being. In this respect, I still have just this one doubt: “Should I not have said everything in the canonical enquiry?” But I have no scruples about having kept silence, because at that time I had as yet no realization of the importance of this particular interrogation. I regarded it, at the time, as being just like the many other interrogations to which I was accustomed. The only thing I thought strange was the order to take the oath. But as it was my confessor who told me to do so, and as I was swearing to the truth, I took the oath without any difficulty. Little did I suspect, at that moment, that the devil would make the most of this, in order to torment me with endless scruples later on. But, thank God, all that is over now.
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 04:44:19 AM by awkwardcustomer »
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Gerard

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3645
  • Thanked: 1291 times
  • .. and his raiment became white and glittering
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2019, 11:15:27 AM »
Therefore the First and Second Secrets have not been approved by the Church.

Yet the Church claimed they revealed the Third Secret in 2000.  Why would they bother if they hadn't been approved.  :rolleyes:

To put the problem to rest without admitting the truth of it.   Sort of like a couple who has a baby 6 months after the wedding and talks about how amazed they are that they have a 9 pound premature child.
 

Offline mikemac

  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6533
  • Thanked: 2739 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2019, 04:41:22 PM »
You guys sure spend a lot of time trying to trash the most well known Marian apparition in recent history.  What a waist of time.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto
 

Offline Gerard

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3645
  • Thanked: 1291 times
  • .. and his raiment became white and glittering
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2019, 01:16:09 AM »
You guys sure spend a lot of time trying to trash the most well known Marian apparition in recent history.  What a waist of time.

Not really.  But what's it to you?  I don't worry about how much time you waste on a false apparition. 
 

Online awkwardcustomer

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2057
  • Thanked: 807 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Instilling the fear of Hell in Children
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2019, 05:52:55 AM »
You guys sure spend a lot of time trying to trash the most well known Marian apparition in recent history.  What a waist of time.

Sister Lucy's own words directly contradict the Fatima narrative.  Who do you believe?

Have you read her diaries?  Has anyone?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.