Author Topic: The Sufferings of Jesus and our duty of reparation relieving those Sorrows.  (Read 410 times)

Offline Xavier

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This was written some years ago by a mainstream Priest, Father Mario. It discusses an interesting letter from St. Padre Pio. St. Pio suggests Our Lord Jesus in His Love continues to be deeply aggrieved by those who offend Him by irreverence, sacrileges, lukewarnmess and even contempt of Him. They increase His Sorrows as King of Martyrs and call us urgently to the duty of reparation. Thoughts?

http://www.independent.com.mt/articles/2010-09-22/letters/padre-pio-a-victim-soul-for-priests-280580/

Quote
"... When studying closely his resourceful letters, one is amazingly struck by the Padre’s determination to offer himself as a living holocaust of love to God to make reparations for his fellow priests.

In this brief reflection I want to allude to an interesting letter that the young Padre Pio wrote to his spiritual Father, Padre Agostino, on 7 April 1913. “On Friday morning (28 March 1913) while I was still in bed, Jesus appeared to me. He was in a sorry state and quite disfigured. He showed me a great multitude of priests, regular and secular, among whom were several high ecclesiastical dignitaries. Some were celebrating Mass, while others were vesting or taking off the sacred vestments. The sight of Jesus in distress was very painful to me, so I asked him why he was suffering so much. There was no reply, but his gaze turned on those priests.

Shortly afterwards, as if terrified and weary of looking at them, he withdrew his gaze. Then he raised his eyes and looked at me and to my great horror I observed two tears coursing down his cheeks. He drew back from that crowd of priests with an expression of great disgust on his face and cried out: ‘Butchers!’ Then turning to me he said: ‘My son, do not think that my agony lasted three hours. No, on account of the souls who have received most from me, I shall be in agony until the end of the world. During my agony, my son, nobody should sleep. My soul goes in search of a drop of human compassion but alas, I am left alone beneath the weight of indifference. The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers makes my agony all the more grievous.

“Alas, how little they correspond to my love! What afflicts me most is that they add contempt and unbelief to their indifference. Many times I have been on the point of annihilating them, had I not been held back by the Angels and by souls who are filled with love for me. Write to your (spiritual) father and tell him what you have seen and heard from me this morning. Tell him to show your letter to Father Provincial...”

This powerful letter excerpt automatically shows that some of us priests are letting down Christ due to our heartbreaking contempt, unbelief and indifference. Unfortunately, even nowadays, these three evils have not only besieged but also already pervaded a number of our priestly souls. Can a priest be a worthy representative of Christ if he ridicules, rejects and grows lukewarm in the matters of the Lord? Can a priest ever absolve himself from his priestly duty of “go(ing) after the one which is lost, until he finds it?” (Luke 15, 4).

The Apostle of the Gentiles is quite direct in reminding us priests that “those (of us) who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires” (Gal 5, 24). It is high time that we priests both take our personal responsibility for our sins and humbly express our sorrow as well as willingly embrace a priestly victimhood so that our brother priests who have strayed from their vocation can find their way back to the Lord ..."
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 

Offline Gerard

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I think it's not accurate. 

Christ's sufferings are past tense in every theological discussion, in the Creeds and in the fact that the suffering was over when He died in His victory over sin.  He's not still meriting grace for mankind on the Cross though the Sacrifice of Calvary is still active in our lives and that moment in time is spiritually (not bloodily) made present to us today.  He has all the grace to give as He pleases. "All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me." 

Jesus the Godhead, Second Person of the Trinity doesn't and never suffered.  Jesus as man suffered, died, was buried, rose from the dead and was Glorified and United to His Father in Heaven at the Ascension. 

So, I don't see how He can suffer for sins now after His victory over all sin for all time to an infinite degree at Calvary. 

 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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According to the article linked to in the OP, Padre Pio had the following vision as a young man, which he described in a letter to his spiritual Father, Padre Agostino, on 7 April 1913.

Quote
“On Friday morning (28 March 1913) while I was still in bed, Jesus appeared to me. He was in a sorry state and quite disfigured. He showed me a great multitude of priests, regular and secular, among whom were several high ecclesiastical dignitaries. Some were celebrating Mass, while others were vesting or taking off the sacred vestments. The sight of Jesus in distress was very painful to me, so I asked him why he was suffering so much. There was no reply, but his gaze turned on those priests.

Shortly afterwards, as if terrified and weary of looking at them, he withdrew his gaze. Then he raised his eyes and looked at me and to my great horror I observed two tears coursing down his cheeks. He drew back from that crowd of priests with an expression of great disgust on his face and cried out: ‘Butchers!’ Then turning to me he said: ‘My son, do not think that my agony lasted three hours. No, on account of the souls who have received most from me, I shall be in agony until the end of the world. During my agony, my son, nobody should sleep. My soul goes in search of a drop of human compassion but alas, I am left alone beneath the weight of indifference. The ingratitude and the sleep of my ministers makes my agony all the more grievous.

“Alas, how little they correspond to my love! What afflicts me most is that they add contempt and unbelief to their indifference. Many times I have been on the point of annihilating them, had I not been held back by the Angels and by souls who are filled with love for me. Write to your (spiritual) father and tell him what you have seen and heard from me this morning. Tell him to show your letter to Father Provincial...”

Oh dear. How can this be authentic?

Surely Christ is in glory, in Heaven, and doesn't suffer.


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Innocent Smith

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I think it's not accurate. 

Christ's sufferings are past tense in every theological discussion, in the Creeds and in the fact that the suffering was over when He died in His victory over sin.  He's not still meriting grace for mankind on the Cross though the Sacrifice of Calvary is still active in our lives and that moment in time is spiritually (not bloodily) made present to us today.  He has all the grace to give as He pleases. "All power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me." 

Jesus the Godhead, Second Person of the Trinity doesn't and never suffered.  Jesus as man suffered, died, was buried, rose from the dead and was Glorified and United to His Father in Heaven at the Ascension. 

So, I don't see how He can suffer for sins now after His victory over all sin for all time to an infinite degree at Calvary.

Gerard, I am in general agreement with you, but did you inadvertently also step in it?

The Hypostatic Union states that Jesus has two natures; one fully man and the other fully divine.

Jesus no longer suffers, but he still displays his wounds to his Father as the means to the victory over death.

I'm not going to try and flesh it out here as I'm sure I would completely fail. But I think it's not as cut and dried as you state as to which of his natures did the suffering.

Another thing comes to mind as I write this response. Jesus wept. We all know that means God and man wept when Lazarus died. That's what makes it so significant. A man who was a friend was not the only one weeping, God wept.
I am going to hold a pistol to the head of the modern man. But I shall not use it to kill him, only to bring him to life.
 
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Offline Gerard

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Gerard, I am in general agreement with you, but did you inadvertently also step in it?

The Hypostatic Union states that Jesus has two natures; one fully man and the other fully divine.

Jesus no longer suffers, but he still displays his wounds to his Father as the means to the victory over death.

I'm not going to try and flesh it out here as I'm sure I would completely fail. But I think it's not as cut and dried as you state as to which of his natures did the suffering.

Another thing comes to mind as I write this response. Jesus wept. We all know that means God and man wept when Lazarus died. That's what makes it so significant. A man who was a friend was not the only one weeping, God wept.


I don't think we are in disagreement.  You stated that "Jesus no longer suffers."  The "vision" attributed to Padre Pio says otherwise. 

There is a significant difference in Christ's humanity after the resurrection and the Ascension than there is before.  His fully human, glorified body is beyond suffering after the Passion and death.  The Resurrection changes all of that. 


We're dealing with a mystery of the Trinity here.  We have to understand that God is never separate from Himself.  The Second Person of the Trinity didn't leave Heaven and come to Earth as a man, He is a part of the Trinity so He stayed in Heaven and simultaneously generated Himself as fully man and fully God on Earth. 

While on Earth Jesus wept and suffered and "grew in wisdom" as He saw things through human eyes for the first time and recognized them differently than He knows them Divinely. 

Now and in Eternity, He keeps His wounds as signs of His passion, He doesn't actually have "sores" that he's got to bandage and stop the wounds from reopening. 

Aquinas makes some of these distinctions in his section on the Passion.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4046.htm#article12

The key question is dealt with here: 

Article 12. Whether Christ's Passion is to be attributed to His Godhead?

Objection 1. It would seem that Christ's Passion is to be attributed to His Godhead; for it is written (1 Corinthians 2:8): "If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory." But Christ is the Lord of glory in respect of His Godhead. Therefore Christ's Passion is attributed to Him in respect of His Godhead.

Objection 2. Further, the principle of men's salvation is the Godhead Itself, according to Psalm 36:39: "But the salvation of the just is from the Lord." Consequently, if Christ's Passion did not appertain to His Godhead, it would seem that it could not produce fruit in us.

Objection 3. Further, the Jews were punished for slaying Christ as for murdering God Himself; as is proved by the gravity of the punishment. Now this would not be so if the Passion were not attributed to the Godhead. Therefore Christ's Passion should be so attributed.

On the contrary, Athanasius says (Ep. ad Epict.): "The Word is impassible whose Nature is Divine." But what is impassible cannot suffer. Consequently, Christ's Passion did not concern His Godhead.

I answer that, As stated above (2, 1,2,3,6), the union of the human nature with the Divine was effected in the Person, in the hypostasis, in the suppositum, yet observing the distinction of natures; so that it is the same Person and hypostasis of the Divine and human natures, while each nature retains that which is proper to it. And therefore, as stated above (III:16:4), the Passion is to be attributed to the suppositum of the Divine Nature, not because of the Divine Nature, which is impassible, but by reason of the human nature. Hence, in a Synodal Epistle of Cyril [Act. Conc. Ephes., P. i, cap. 26] we read: "If any man does not confess that the Word of God suffered in the flesh and was crucified in the flesh, let him be anathema." Therefore Christ's Passion belongs to the "suppositum" of the Divine Nature by reason of the passible nature assumed, but not on account of the impassible Divine Nature.

Reply to Objection 1. The Lord of glory is said to be crucified, not as the Lord of glory, but as a man capable of suffering.

Reply to Objection 2. As is said in a sermon of the Council of Ephesus [P. iii, cap. 10, "Christ's death being, as it were, God's death"—namely, by union in Person—"destroyed death"; since He who suffered "was both God and man. For God's Nature was not wounded, nor did It undergo any change by those sufferings."

Reply to Objection 3. As the passage quoted goes on to say: "The Jews did not crucify one who was simply a man; they inflicted their presumptions upon God. For suppose a prince to speak by word of mouth, and that his words are committed to writing on a parchment and sent out to the cities, and that some rebel tears up the document, he will be led forth to endure the death sentence, not for merely tearing up a document, but as destroying the imperial message. Let not the Jew, then, stand in security, as crucifying a mere man; since what he saw was as the parchment, but what was hidden under it was the imperial Word, the Son by nature, not the mere utterance of a tongue."
 

Offline Xavier

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Jesus is as really Present among us now - as He was when He became a Child in Bethlehem - in His Eucharist. Why then would we doubt that His Love causes Him to suffer when we reject Him and pierce His Heart by treason and ingratitude? Bethlehem literally means House of Bread. It was always understood His Presence and the contempt and indifference He received from so many including Herod, the scribes etc foreshadows the contempt, indifference, lukewarmness and hatred with which men treat Him in His Eucharistic Presence now. But by the Mercy of God, then as now, there are reparatory souls like the adoring shepherds in whom the Heart of Jesus finds sweet consolation. Let us all strive to be among them, as was St. Pio.

I think understandable misunderstandings come from a child's view of God and Heaven. God is in Heaven, therefore He is not on Earth. No, just as God, while reigning Supreme in Heaven truly was born as a Baby on Christmas Day and became Man, He now after His Crucifixion and glorious Resurrection remains with us forever in His Eucharistic Host, until the end of time.

I personally have no doubt about it, as I've read it many devotional and theological works alike. This is Fr. Mueller, CSSR, for those interested,
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"What could have induced Our Dear Lord, Christian soul, to stay with us on earth in the Blessed Sacrament? Was it to gain honor? Alas, Our Good Lord receives the same treatment in the Blessed Eucharist which He received during the thirty-three years that He lived upon earth! When upon earth, He was made light of, and it was said of Him: "Is He not the son of a carpenter?" "Why do you listen to Him?" said the Pharisees. "Do you not see that He has a devil, that He is possessed, that He is a wine-drinker and a friend of sinners?" They bound Him, scourged Him, crowned Him with thorns, and at last making Him carry His Own Cross, they crucified Him. Such was the honor which Jesus Christ received when living among men! And has He not been treated in the same manner in His Sacrament, from that time to the present day? Instead of being honored by all men, as He deserves, He is dishonored and insulted. Some do not think of Him for weeks together; others walk carelessly into the church, almost like men without faith, and make their genuflexion before Him as if they wished to mock Him; others behave in church as if they were in their own houses. In many churches there is not even a lamp kept burning; and how often has it happened that the consecrated Hosts have been trodden under foot or thrown into the fire by heretics, Jews and other bad men?

Such has been the treatment He has met with-----contempt, mockery and insult, or coldness and indifference towards His Divine Majesty! Certainly the expectation of being honored could not have induced Him to remain with us! What then induced Him to stay with us in the Holy Eucharist? Was it to seek or to increase His own happiness? By no means. His happiness is so great that it cannot be increased. He has risen from the dead; He is glorified; He sits at the right hand of God the Father and has all power in Heaven and on earth. The Angels serve Him; men are His subjects, whom He will judge and reward according to their deserts; the devils tremble at His presence; every knee must bend before Him, of those that are in Heaven, on earth and under the earth, in Purgatory and in Hell. What then is wanting to His happiness? Nothing! Since, therefore, Our Lord cannot become happier by remaining with us and since He does not receive due honor among us, what, I ask once more, could have induced Him to abide here so long, to remain on earth for eighteen hundred years, yea, even until the end of the world, to be present in the Blessed Sacrament in every place, in every parish church in America, Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, in the isles of the sea, and even sometimes in the midst of the ocean itself? Ah, Christian soul, there was no other motive than love, the great, the excessive love of Jesus Christ towards men!"
http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/blessed-eucharist3.htm

If you like, here is a limited parallel from the phenomenon of bi-locution we read of in the lives of the Saints, indeed from St. Padre Pio himself. If, hyptothetically, St. Padre Pio, now in Italy, say, was miraculously bilocated to Spain, and then Padre Pio in Spain was viciously beaten half to death, then St. Pio in Spain terribly suffered. The whole thing is a mystery, so we ought rather to accept on faith, then try to scrutinize it to the point where we disbelieve, but some analogical comparison like that may be helpful for some.

There is little doubt that St. Pio understood the need of reparation and really lived the doctrine like few souls in history. Therefore, let us, dear Christian brothers and sisters, do our best to imitate him. Just imagine if the Church had an Army of Priests, Nuns and Laity who lived with even a fraction of the love for Christ Crucified as St. Pio demonstrated all his life. How quickly the Church would triumph over the world and convert nations to the Faith! May God grant we all strive to imitate him in some measure.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:30:13 AM by Xavier »
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Jesus the Godhead, Second Person of the Trinity doesn't and never suffered.  Jesus as man suffered, died, was buried, rose from the dead and was Glorified and United to His Father in Heaven at the Ascension.


Yeah ... Jesus is one divine "I". Even if he "only" suffered in and by virtue of the human body and soul of hius hypostasis, that divine "I" still experienced suffering. The ousia experienced, as a conscious act, suffering in the suffering of the human body and soul of the hypostasis of the son, and that in time. Jesus obviously does not suffer eternally. Western dichotomism again fails to be able to account for this and has to chalk it up to "mystery", and Aquinas's musings on this, unable to escape a confusion of ousia, Godhead and Divine Nature, is well-intentioned but ultimately painful to read.

I consider human suffering from a trichotomic perspective. There are feelings of the body and of the soul that are the stuff of this suffering, belonging to and in the body and soul, and then there is I, conscious of these. Two totally distinct senses of suffering are possible here. It's true that the former cannot belong to the divine nature, and in this first sense the divine nature does not suffer, in agreement with orthodox theology; however, the divine subject, the ousia, most definitely consciously experienced the suffering of the human body and soul of the second hypostasis, and from that we have that the Son, not in his divinity but in his humanity, suffered.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 03:26:53 AM by Kreuzritter »
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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The concept of the Victim Soul seems to be modern,  Certainly, the majority of those designated as Victim Souls seem to belong to the 19th century at the earliest, and mainly the 20th century.

At any rate, we are not obliged to believe in the concept. 

Quote

The Catholic Church does not officially designate anyone as a victim soul. The term stems, rather, from the testimony of those who have encountered Christians who seem to undergo the kind of redemptive suffering we have described.

The victim-soul status, even when it is genuine, is a matter of private revelation. Consequently, the Church teaches us that we are not obliged to accept, as part of the Catholic faith, the legitimacy of any particular person for whom such a claim is made, nor the genuineness of any mystical or miraculous claims that have been made in connection with such a person.
https://osv.com/todaysissues/article/tabid/599/artmid/13753/articleid/10338/what-is-a-victim-soul.aspx
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Like Michael Voris claiming "SSA" people (i.e., himself  :cheeseheadbeer:) to be victim souls.
 

Offline Xavier

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St. Therese was a victim soul. St. Pio too. Mother Mariana of Quito too. Sr. Lucia and the 3 children of Fatima. Sr. Josefa Menendez. There hardly is a visionary to whom Our Lord and Our Lady appeared who did not embrace voluntary co-redemptive suffering. St. Catherine of Sienna. St. Bridget of Sweden. Ven. Mary of Agreda. Time and memory fail me to go on. The great martyrs of the Church who laid down their life imploring graces for others right from St. Stephen are victims. There is a long Tradition.

Mat 16:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."

Col 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: [25] Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfill the word of God:"

"Dying on the Cross He left to His Church the immense treasury of the Redemption, towards which she contributed nothing. But when those graces come to be distributed, not only does He share this work of sanctification with His Church, but He wills that in some way it be due to her action. This is a deep mystery, and an inexhaustible subject of meditation, that the salvation of many depends on the prayers and voluntary penances which the members of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ offer for this intention and on the cooperation of pastors of souls and of the faithful, especially of fathers and mothers of families, a cooperation which they must offer to our Divine Savior as though they were His associates." (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi)

Archbishop Lefebvre laid much emphasis on it in sermons. For conservative Catholics, Bp. Fulton Sheen wrote a book on it. This is a well known doctrine, it stems right from the fact that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Priest and Victim. He calls His Priests and all His People to unite themselves willingly to His Holy Sacrifice, in offering their lives for the salvation of souls.

And this is Bp. Fellay, "A priest who has faith - that is important. And if you have a faith that can move mountains, that is even better, but that is not enough. Imitate what you handle. And here too, it is again the Mass that tells you that in this sublime commerce with God, in which you negotiate the salvation of souls, you must pay with your person - I said that correctly: pay with your person. The priest is not just a priest;  he has a share in the sacrifice: the share of the victim of the Host. And at every Mass you are reminded of this in Communion, which for you is first and foremost the manducation of the Victim [i.e., the Paschal Lamb], in other words, association, union with the Victim of the Sacrifice, who is Our Lord. Our Lord who says: “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends” (Jn 15:13).Our Lord commands you to love His sheep, to love Him first, and then all the souls belonging to Him. There is no exception. There is no limit. All those for whom He gave His Blood. He died for all, for all souls, and He asks you to embrace that concern. This is the concern of the priest, I would say, and there is no other: to save souls." http://archives.sspx.org/superior_generals_news/a_priest_must_be_a_man_of_faith_bishop_fellay_sermon_full_2-4-2013.htm

The word victim occurs frequently in the Old Testament in relations to the sacrifices. Num 15:[3] "And shall make an offering to the Lord, for a holocaust, or a victim, paying your vows, or voluntarily offering gifts" St. Paul in a similar way says, "For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand." (2 Tim 4:6)
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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The acceptance and offering up of one's suffering in union with the sufferings of Christ in His Passion certainly has a venerable tradition in the Church.

But is the acceptance and offering up of one's suffering in union with Christ's Suffering now a relatively recent concept?  The visions of the modern Victim Souls almost always portray Christ as suffering, not in His Passion, but because of the insults and blasphemies that He has to endure in the present.

Is it theologically sound to claim that Christ suffers now because of the sins of the present day?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline nmoerbeek

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The acceptance and offering up of one's suffering in union with the sufferings of Christ in His Passion certainly has a venerable tradition in the Church.

But is the acceptance and offering up of one's suffering in union with Christ's Suffering now a relatively recent concept?  The visions of the modern Victim Souls almost always portray Christ as suffering, not in His Passion, but because of the insults and blasphemies that He has to endure in the present.

Is it theologically sound to claim that Christ suffers now because of the sins of the present day?

When you or I suffer in a state of Grace, God because He dwells within us also suffers.  We know this because of Acts 9:4 and also Colossians 1:24. So, it is more than a venerable tradition, it is Apostolic Tradition with a big T, going back to the explicit teaching of the Apostles. God suffers in His mystical body which is the Church, so yes God suffers now in a mystical sense, because we are joined to him.

"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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When you or I suffer in a state of Grace, God because He dwells within us also suffers.  We know this because of Acts 9:4 and also Colossians 1:24. So, it is more than a venerable tradition, it is Apostolic Tradition with a big T, going back to the explicit teaching of the Apostles. God suffers in His mystical body which is the Church, so yes God suffers now in a mystical sense, because we are joined to him.

So, when we are in a state of Grace and suffer, God also suffers because He dwells within us.  That's what you're saying. 

But how does this translate to Christ suffering because of the insults and blasphemies of those who are not in a state of Grace?   The two situations are not comparable. 

If God does not dwell within those responsible for the blasphemies and insults that supposedly cause so much distress to Christ now, how can God suffer in the way you are describing?


And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline nmoerbeek

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When you or I suffer in a state of Grace, God because He dwells within us also suffers.  We know this because of Acts 9:4 and also Colossians 1:24. So, it is more than a venerable tradition, it is Apostolic Tradition with a big T, going back to the explicit teaching of the Apostles. God suffers in His mystical body which is the Church, so yes God suffers now in a mystical sense, because we are joined to him.

So, when we are in a state of Grace and suffer, God also suffers because He dwells within us.  That's what you're saying. 

But how does this translate to Christ suffering because of the insults and blasphemies of those who are not in a state of Grace?   The two situations are not comparable. 

If God does not dwell within those responsible for the blasphemies and insults that supposedly cause so much distress to Christ now, how can God suffer in the way you are describing?

Because as  Acts 9:4 teaches us with Christ speaking to St. Paul "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?".  When we have to suffer insults, or persecution or willingly suffer the problems of life in a State of Grace, Christ who dwells with us also suffers these things with us in a real but mystical way.

The Church, being the bride of Christ, always suffers when we see the One true God blasphemed and insulted.  This is how we are to understand God suffering in time now, God suffers in His mystical body which is the Church and the Church has always suffered and will always suffer until the end of time.
"Let me, however, beg of Your Beatitude...
not to think so much of what I have written, as of my good and kind intentions. Please look for the truths of which I speak rather than for beauty of expression. Where I do not come up to your expectations, pardon me, and put my shortcomings down, please, to lack of time and stress of business." St. Bonaventure, From the Preface of Holiness of Life.

Apostolate:
http://www.alleluiaaudiobooks.com/
Contributor:
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/
Lay Association:
http://www.militiatempli.net/
 
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Offline John Lamb

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nmoerbeek has the right idea, and it's what makes sense of Padre Pio's vision (which is theologically sound, in my opinion).

No, Christ is not in heaven right now physically suffering; but He is mystically suffering, and in 2 senses:

1. The sins which are being committed today are the cause of Christ's physical suffering during His passion centuries ago – Christ suffered for the sins of all mankind: past, present, and future. So Christ's suffering is "mystically" present all throughout the history of sinful mankind, even though His suffering was only "physically" present while He was on earth.
2. The sufferings of souls united to Christ (in sanctifying grace) are in a sense the sufferings of Christ Himself, because Christ identifies with His members in the Mystical Body: the Church of which He is the head.

Neither of these are novelties at all.

Is it theologically sound to claim that Christ suffers now because of the sins of the present day?

In the first sense (above): no – Christ is not suffering now because of present day sins, but He did suffer then because of present day sins.

In the second sense: yes – Christ is suffering now because His members are suffering, and He and His members are mystically one.




When you accuse a vision like that of Padre Pio's referred to earlier of being false, you need to be careful not to give a mystical vision a too literal interpretation. Padre Pio wasn't seeing Our Lord as He was in heaven right at that time (in the 1900s), but rather He saw what Our Lord was suffering ~30AD because of the sins of 20th century priests. Also, Padre Pio saw how Christ's Mystical Body (the Church) was suffering in the 20th century because of the sins of priests.

In summary, from the moment He ascended into heaven, Christ's soul has been in a physical state of total bliss in heaven, and remains that way now & forever. However, because Christ united Himself to all just souls throughout history, He suffers mystically alongside them even today; and because Christ suffered for the sins of all mankind, any sin committed today is a cause of His suffering at the time of His physical passion.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 11:58:14 AM by John Lamb »
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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