Author Topic: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?  (Read 255 times)

Offline Geremia

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Offline Gardener

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2019, 04:23:44 PM »
Per Canon Law? Not necessarily.

http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2010/10/21/have-pro-abortion-politicians-excommunicated-themselves/

The pertinent 1917 canon *specifically for involvement in abortion* is 2350 and basically is the same as the 1983's canon 1398.

However, Dolan's statement when he was interviewed this morning about how "The Church doesn't excommunicate mothers who abort anymore" or whatever claptrap he said, was in fact, wrong; one might argue true, since the Church doesn't excommunicate anyone in this case, but the person themselves. Dolan is either a moron (possible), or was playing word games to appear more "merciful" when in fact the mother herself is the one who acts in judgement and, as it were, executioner of themselves.
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Offline Josephine87

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2019, 07:08:55 PM »
He doesn't receive communion anyway, so I've heard.  Many years ago he split from his Kennedy wife (their children are "Kennedy-Cuomo"s).  Supposedly he stopped receiving after shacking up with another woman.
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 02:27:51 PM »
He doesn't receive communion anyway, so I've heard.  Many years ago he split from his Kennedy wife (their children are "Kennedy-Cuomo"s).  Supposedly he stopped receiving after shacking up with another woman.

Yes, Ed Peters mentioned that in his analysis. He doesn't think the excommunication has been occurred automatically, but does believe it would be proper to impose excommunication for Cuomo's full-throated promotion of the law and celebrating its passage, invoking his Catholic values all the way. It's a classic case of scandal, and excommunication would send a message, even if Cuomo doesn't commune anyway.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 03:00:54 PM »
He doesn't receive communion anyway, so I've heard.  Many years ago he split from his Kennedy wife (their children are "Kennedy-Cuomo"s).  Supposedly he stopped receiving after shacking up with another woman.

Yes, Ed Peters mentioned that in his analysis. He doesn't think the excommunication has been occurred automatically, but does believe it would be proper to impose excommunication for Cuomo's full-throated promotion of the law and celebrating its passage, invoking his Catholic values all the way. It's a classic case of scandal, and excommunication would send a message, even if Cuomo doesn't commune anyway.

The question though is what Canon would allow such an excommunication to stick. Did Peters mention that in his analysis? Both 1917 and 1983 only specify for abortion that it must be direct involvement.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Offline Geremia

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 05:30:20 PM »
He doesn't think the excommunication has been occurredincured automatically, but does believe it would be proper to impose excommunication for Cuomo's full-throatedthrottled promotion of the law and celebrating its passage, invoking his Catholic values all the way.

Offline Geremia

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 05:36:54 PM »
Both 1917 and 1983 only specify for abortion that it must be direct involvement.
It does?
Bp. Olmsted in Phoenix, Arizona, judged that a member of on a (then-Catholic) hospital board who okayed an abortion "formally cooperates" in abortion, incurring a latæ sententiæ excommunication. How is Cuomo not similarly formally cooperating in abortion?

Offline Gardener

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 06:16:57 PM »
Not sure. Perhaps because it was a specific case that was completed to its end?

Here’s the 1983:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P57.HTM

1917:
http://www.archive.org/stream/newcanonlaw00woywuoft#page/380/mode/2up

Page 381, 2350.

Note the far more specific language.

In fact, I’d almost argue the 1983 code is more strict in its broadness, since it could be more easily applied. The 1917 code is so specific that I don’t know how it would apply to a politician.

The better tactic would be that of heresy, but harder to prove.

But I’m not a JCL (I don’t even play one on TV), so I don’t know.


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Offline Santantonio

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 06:43:31 PM »
Andrew Cuomo and other Catholic politicians who pass laws allowing abortion are not automatically
excommunicated. They would have to be specifically excommunicated, or Canon Law changed to make
it automatic.

Here's an example of an auto-ex in the abortion industry. Notice she was a director at Planned Parenthood.
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/01/25/us/church-calls-excommunicated-catholic-abortion-accomplice.html
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 07:14:45 PM »
1983
Quote
Can. 1398 — Qui abortum procurat, effectu secuto, in excommunicationem latae sententiae incurrit.
[He who procures a completed abortion incurs latæ sententiæ excommunication.]
1917:
Quote
Can. 2350. par. 1. Procurantes abortum, matre non excepta, incurrunt, effectu secuto, in excommumcationem latae sententiae Ordinario reservatam; et si sint clerici, praeterea deponantur.
[Those who procure a completed abortion, the mother not excepted, incur latæ sententiæ excommunication reserved to the Ordinary; and if this are clerics, may they also be deposed/defrocked.
It's interesting the 1917 Code explicitly mentions the mother.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 07:17:22 PM by Geremia »
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 05:18:59 AM »
He doesn't receive communion anyway, so I've heard.  Many years ago he split from his Kennedy wife (their children are "Kennedy-Cuomo"s).  Supposedly he stopped receiving after shacking up with another woman.

Yes, Ed Peters mentioned that in his analysis. He doesn't think the excommunication has been occurred automatically, but does believe it would be proper to impose excommunication for Cuomo's full-throated promotion of the law and celebrating its passage, invoking his Catholic values all the way. It's a classic case of scandal, and excommunication would send a message, even if Cuomo doesn't commune anyway.

The question though is what Canon would allow such an excommunication to stick. Did Peters mention that in his analysis? Both 1917 and 1983 only specify for abortion that it must be direct involvement.

Canon 1369 (1983): "A person who in a public show or speech, in published writing, or in other uses of the instruments of social communication utters blasphemy, gravely injures good morals, expresses insults, or excites hatred or contempt against religion or the Church is to be punished with a just penalty."

Since penal laws are to be interpreted strictly, he thinks that proving a charge of heresy is likely very difficult in Cuomo's case; thus he thinks Canon 1369 is the better approach. He also says that there is some debate among canonists whether the "just penalty" referred to in 1369 is intended to refer to excommunication, at least in the first instance; should lesser penalties imposed under Canon 1369 be ignored or otherwise violated, then excommunication becomes more likely under Canon 1393.

Ed Peter's first post.

His second.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 05:20:41 AM »
He doesn't think the excommunication has been occurredincured automatically, but does believe it would be proper to impose excommunication for Cuomo's full-throatedthrottled promotion of the law and celebrating its passage, invoking his Catholic values all the way.

Yes, I meant "incurred." And "full-throated" is a completely acceptable expression to mean "complete, unmitigated, thoroughgoing."
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 02:54:27 PM »
And "full-throated" is a completely acceptable expression to mean "complete, unmitigated, thoroughgoing."
Interesting. The OED defines it: "Using the full power of one’s voice; expressed loudly or vigorously." I thought it was an eggcorn.

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Hasn't Cuomo excommunicated himself?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 09:59:10 PM »
Just going to leave this here.  Virginia governor openly discussing killing post-birth babies.


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