Author Topic: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries  (Read 679 times)

Offline kmo_9000

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The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« on: January 27, 2019, 08:28:42 AM »
In all the changes to the Church after Vatican II, it certainly seems that we can point to examples where those who had the power acted maliciously to destroy or to re-educate or in general impose their will on the faithful and on their peers in the clergy.

Critics will say that trads are making assumptions and don't have proof to 100% know the intent behind certain people's actions. Some will even go so far as to accuse us of being "conspiracy theorists." (think about the communist infiltration of the Church written about by Bella Dodd)

I would say that 100% certainly is probably never possible, but decisions can be made on accepted standards of proof, such as beyond a reasonable doubt or on the balance of probabilities. Judgments in law are made every day based on these standards.

I would say that in assessing culpability, it should go without saying that those who had more power should be held to greater responsibility. Clearly, your average family or person going to Mass can't be held to the same level of responsibility as those (both priests and lay people) in positions of power in parishes and in the upper hierarchy in the Church.

But the question is can we reasonably judge there to be malicious intent.

Maybe the biggest example of this could be the fact it's been established that we have had a sexual abuse problem reaching up to the highest levels in the Church. We have a cardinal who is a homosexual rapist, and even if those acts were consensual, his entire life would have been a lie.

I don't think it's unreasonable to judge that if we have people like that in control that their actions most likely were not always done in good faith. In fact, we have to acknowledge that they probably didn't even possess supernatural faith due to their adherence to heresy and mortal sin.

So we see the faithful being told lies on a wide scale that certain practices of the faith that were once part of their lives are no longer correct. Based on faulty scholarship, we were told that the high altars needed to be torn down and the priest needed to face the people. Similar story with communion on the hand. The use of the vernacular. And ultimately the change of rites in the liturgy itself based on condemned antiquarian principles.

I recall the story of one priest during the time of the Counsel who was trained prior and still held to his traditional beliefs. As this was problematic, he was sent to a re-education center. His first day there after dinner they pulled out a bottle of wine and a loaf of bread, read the readings from one of those Mass booklets, then one of the priests said the words of consecration over the bread and wine. The priest was told that this is how things work around here and we will discuss things in the days to come. He went to his room and cried the whole night.

Apart from being blatantly communist, the above is a perfect example of the commonplace lack of charity among those in the priesthood and hierarchy. Further, these stories are commonplace, not just one offs. So, I think malicious intent is easy to show beyond a reasonable doubt in many cases and to not see this you would have to be either disingenuous or outright ignorant.
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2019, 11:48:25 PM »
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He went to his room and cried the whole night.

That was his response?  That is proof that there was already a serious problem.  Ugh.  What a pathetic example. 



The pre-conciliar Church was loaded with problems, Modernism being merely one of them.  Numerous people knew that a revitalization was necessary but were seriously ill-equipped to deal with it.  The most liberal and malicious sided with basically liberal and moderate liberal dupes.  Many of those dupes would later be shocked and regret what happened. Henri du Lubac being probably the most famous. 

"Conservatives" for the most part were simply company men who enjoyed their status and power.  People like Cardinal Ottaviani fought until they lost and then gave up all sense of fighting.  Cardinals Ciappi and Bacci and Oddi all pretty much faded away. 

It was only a very small contingent of separate individuals that foresaw the disaster.  People like Archbishop LeFebvre, Fr. Gommar De Pauw and Bishop Castro de Mayer and a smattering of priests here and there. 

And even within that small group, they only knew the disaster, they still didn't see the problems that were manifest prior to and during the Council.  Archbishop LeFebvre was stunned at the lack of resistance among the laity and the inability of the faithful to truly take scandal from the ecumenical and inter religious actions of John Paul II. 

Eventually some people saw the disaster after the fact and lamented, some repented for their unwitting participation. (Fr. Stephen Sommerville's recanting from his participation in the ICEL translations.)

People like Josef Ratzinger even prior to becoming Pope and JPII and even Paul VI actually saw the disaster and acknowledged it to various degrees but didn't see a return to "tradition" as a viable option. 

Bishop Williamson years ago made the apt description of the various sects in Rome as consisting of the weak, the wicked and the hopelessly confused. 
 
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Offline kmo_9000

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2019, 08:10:52 AM »
Lets send you to a communist-esque re-education center and see how you fair.
 
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 10:51:02 AM »
This is an example of why middle class is not the ideal.  Priests are so beholden to the lifestyle that they are unable to kick the dust from their feet and move on to the next house. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - Habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 11:36:05 AM »
Lets send you to a communist-esque re-education center and see how you fair.

I wouldn't go in the first place.  And if I did wind up there I wouldn't spend the night crying. I'd spend it blocking my door and planning my escape.  The bottle of wine and loaf of bread should have been the signal to run immediately.  My cousin was a priest (now dead) and he was physically ill and they were going to send him off to one of the "hospitals" that was also a re-education center.  He vehemently said, "No. They are not going to send me there with all of those homosexuals."  And he had enough family and friends and was vocal enough about it, to prevent the higher ups from trying to force the issue. 

But, every person in general, not just priests should not be so dependent on people (barring disabilities) or plans of higher ups that you surrender your ability to take care of yourself.  Back when the Jesuits were the real deal, they were completely self-sufficient if need be. They didn't need the "order" to supply them with anything in order to cope with the practicalities their situation.  They would go way beyond what we would consider "normal" in order to solve the problems in front of them.  Wear disguises, create tools, learn what needed to be learned incredibly fast.  We don't all have the skills but we can all follow the same principles. 

Another priest friend of mine is currently studying in Rome, I told him to make sure he had the means outside of the Church either through family or friends that if anything looks especially squirrely he can high tail it out of there and get himself to a "safe house" of some sort asap and make his way home.   

 

Offline kmo_9000

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2019, 11:15:11 AM »
So it's as simple as just not going is it? You have no idea of what you're talking about.
 

Offline Gerard

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2019, 01:45:13 PM »
So it's as simple as just not going is it? You have no idea of what you're talking about.

Oh since you know better, you explain the benefits of being an adult, submissive coward and weeping like a distraught child.  Show me how THAT is mounting a defense of the faith and standing up for God and His Angels as a soldier of Jesus Christ.

 

 “The greatest obstacle in the apostolate of the Church is the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful.”
-- Pope Pius X

 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2019, 02:30:47 PM »
A friend of mine from New Caledonia told me of a priest who refused to say the New Mass, so the bishop kicked him out; without a family or friends for support, he went to the jungle, built himself a hut and lived off the land.
Another priest who I knew personally, was the last one of his class to receive his own parish; he was sent to a poor outlying parish with few people thatm nobody else wanted; the priest worked hard to build it up and as the city moved out towards where he was the parish grew. He was able to start a school and he brought in religious sisters to run the school. This priest was happy going along with the N.O.M. And all was going smoothly, until the parents started to complain about the catechism the sisters were using in the school; the priest promised to examine the catechisms, and after perusing them, he agree with the parents that they were inadequate and did not do a good job transmitting the faith. So he ordered the sisters to use Baltimore Catechisms; the sisters balked and complained to Cardinal Cody. Fr. Was summoned to the bishop's office, and the "interview" lasted less than 60 seconds. Cardinal Cody told this old faithful priest: "You're out!"; he kicked a priest out who had no other means of support; his sister told my Mom: "I was awakned one night by a knock on my door and when I opened it, there stood my brother, crying with a suitcase in his hands; all his possessions were in that case; he stayed on my sofa and just cried for six months. Then some of his ex-parishioners came looking for him, and he began saying Mass for them and other groups. He served several Mass centers; and died faithful to his priestly vocation. As Another traditionalist priest said of him: The getting kicked out of his parish, saved his soul.

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 03:01:03 PM »
Re. Malicious Intent: definitely; most of the master minds of the Council were either previously censured by the Holy Office because of their heterodox opinions or were promoting these same opinions; these guys were not the proverbial "babes in the woods".
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2019, 03:26:55 PM »
A friend of mine from New Caledonia told me of a priest who refused to say the New Mass, so the bishop kicked him out; without a family or friends for support, he went to the jungle, built himself a hut and lived off the land.
Another priest who I knew personally, was the last one of his class to receive his own parish; he was sent to a poor outlying parish with few people thatm nobody else wanted; the priest worked hard to build it up and as the city moved out towards where he was the parish grew. He was able to start a school and he brought in religious sisters to run the school. This priest was happy going along with the N.O.M. And all was going smoothly, until the parents started to complain about the catechism the sisters were using in the school; the priest promised to examine the catechisms, and after perusing them, he agree with the parents that they were inadequate and did not do a good job transmitting the faith. So he ordered the sisters to use Baltimore Catechisms; the sisters balked and complained to Cardinal Cody. Fr. Was summoned to the bishop's office, and the "interview" lasted less than 60 seconds. Cardinal Cody told this old faithful priest: "You're out!"; he kicked a priest out who had no other means of support; his sister told my Mom: "I was awakned one night by a knock on my door and when I opened it, there stood my brother, crying with a suitcase in his hands; all his possessions were in that case; he stayed on my sofa and just cried for six months. Then some of his ex-parishioners came looking for him, and he began saying Mass for them and other groups. He served several Mass centers; and died faithful to his priestly vocation. As Another traditionalist priest said of him: The getting kicked out of his parish, saved his soul.

Thanks. These kinds of stories pretty much evidence different religion and malicious intent. What CATHOLIC could possibly have an objection to the Baltimore Catechism?
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2019, 03:56:44 PM »
Kreuzritter,
that is exactly right. Its a whole different religion.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2019, 04:44:19 PM »
Oh since you know better, you explain the benefits of being an adult, submissive coward and weeping like a distraught child.  Show me how THAT is mounting a defense of the faith and standing up for God and His Angels as a soldier of Jesus Christ.

 

“The greatest obstacle in the apostolate of the Church is the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful.”
-- Pope Pius X

Do you have a source for that quote?

And your point about adults behaving like weeping, distraught children and not Soldiers of Christ.  Don't the visions and apparitions of the Victim Souls show Christ in a similarly distressed state? 

And regarding the timidity, or cowardice, of the laity pointed to by Pope Pius X.  Don't these visions and apparitions encourage this by prescribing for the laity reparation and sacrifice rather than action?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2019, 05:55:19 PM »
Gerard you're wrong to associate weakness with the priest who wept and worse consider it "pathetic". No one can be a judge of the hardships of good people who are mistreated. No one can know the dynamics under which they live.

We cannot truly understand what it is to be a priest today. No one can unless you are one.

You spend countless hours defending Malachi Martin, a priest who spent most of his life in lay clothes going by his 1st name and denying his vocation to the public for most of his life with how he dressed to the world and presented himself as only "Malachi". Somehow you spend countless hours defending him. Here we can objectively see and hear him looking like a layman not looking like a priest or going by "Fr" but this guy is worth defending, but a priest who was trying to live his life and being tortured and crying, he's an object of "pathetic" behavior.

Here's images of Malachi Martin:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1276&bih=781&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=4ntTXJXoPIih1fAPyeGE6Aw&q=malachi+martin

Maybe just like Malachi things are more complicated and nuanced than 5 second knee jerk reactions?
"God has proved his love to us by laying down his life for our sakes; we too must be ready to lay down our lives for the sake of our brethren." 1 John 3:16
 
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Offline Gerard

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2019, 08:21:16 PM »
Oh since you know better, you explain the benefits of being an adult, submissive coward and weeping like a distraught child.  Show me how THAT is mounting a defense of the faith and standing up for God and His Angels as a soldier of Jesus Christ.

 

“The greatest obstacle in the apostolate of the Church is the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful.”
-- Pope Pius X

Do you have a source for that quote?

It's from the discourse on the beatification of Joan of Arc from 1908. The Vatican only has it in Italian so there are various translations around. 

Quote
And your point about adults behaving like weeping, distraught children and not Soldiers of Christ.  Don't the visions and apparitions of the Victim Souls show Christ in a similarly distressed state?


I think you're right and I think that is by design (whether human or demonic) to soften Catholics up and make them less willing to get into a conflict.  To go along to get along. 

Quote
And regarding the timidity, or cowardice, of the laity pointed to by Pope Pius X.  Don't these visions and apparitions encourage this by prescribing for the laity reparation and sacrifice rather than action?

I think there's definitely a disequalibrium at work in these anecdotes and phenomena.  However they trickle down to us, it is usually altered, something added here or taken away there in order to make it more amenable to the people telling the story. 

I think back to the famous picture of Padre Pio and Archbishop LeFebvre.  A whole story was manufactured about Padre Pio scolding the Archbishop and telling him he would be disobedient and a whole load of claptrap. 

I hear stories that are exactly the same and one person attributes it to St. John Vianney, another to Padre Pio.   I get sick of it to tell you the truth. 

They always come down to some kind of recasting of the some element of the faith and warping it. 

 
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Offline Gerard

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Re: The Malicious Intent of the Vatican II Revolutionaries
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2019, 08:42:16 PM »
Gerard you're wrong to associate weakness with the priest who wept and worse consider it "pathetic". No one can be a judge of the hardships of good people who are mistreated. No one can know the dynamics under which they live.

We cannot truly understand what it is to be a priest today. No one can unless you are one.

You spend countless hours defending Malachi Martin, a priest who spent most of his life in lay clothes going by his 1st name and denying his vocation to the public for most of his life with how he dressed to the world and presented himself as only "Malachi". Somehow you spend countless hours defending him. Here we can objectively see and hear him looking like a layman not looking like a priest or going by "Fr" but this guy is worth defending, but a priest who was trying to live his life and being tortured and crying, he's an object of "pathetic" behavior.

Here's images of Malachi Martin:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=1276&bih=781&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=4ntTXJXoPIih1fAPyeGE6Aw&q=malachi+martin

Maybe just like Malachi things are more complicated and nuanced than 5 second knee jerk reactions?

Malachi Martin was willing to give up all of the luxurious living and the prestige of being a formed scholar /Jesuit and a professor of Bibilical Studies at the Vatican.  He gave up all career advancement and drove a cab in New York to get by.  He had multiple doctorates, spoke a dozen languages fluently and waited tables in his late 40s. 

Had Fr. Martin felt low when he was sleeping in his cab and trying to see what the next day would bring I would think it reasonable for him to take a moment and feel bad for himself. 

But to be appalled at a sacrilege and to passively accept it and the only reaction you can come up with is to cry in your room, indicates that there was a severe problem manifesting itself in the quality of "man" that was being ordained.  This is about a character defect and a malformed priest. 

What kind of strength can you look towards the priest for if he falls apart like that at the first indication of trouble? 

Can you imagine Archbishop LeFebvre crying like that? 

Bishop Castro De Mayer?

Bishop Williamson?

Bishop Tissier de Mallerais? 

Fr. Paul Wickens?

Fr. Gommar De Pauw?

Fr. Vincent Miceli? 

Fr. Gregory Hesse?

Fr. John Hardon?

Bishop Fulton Sheen?

Fr. Feeney?

Fr. Coughlin?

Fr. Michael Rodriguez? 

And there are thousands of others, not as well known, too many to list. 

Who is famous that we know of that wept? 

Oh that's right.  Paul VI.  The most powerful man in the Church and one of the most powerful men in the World at the time, wept when he saw that Lumen Gentium was written to undermine the power of the papacy.  He sat there impotent and unwilling to exercise his power in any manful way and saddled the Church with the documents of Vatican II to be slobbered over by and celebrated by the people that like to take loaves of bread and bottles of wine and commit sacrilege.