Author Topic: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass  (Read 365 times)

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2019, 01:49:24 PM »
In the meantime, know that I generally agree with you about the liberating effect of a pew-less church space. If I had a million bucks to build a private chapel in my house, you'd better believe it wouldn't have pews cluttering things up.

Don't you think it's ironic that the modern liturgical reformers claim to be liberating the laity and yet everyone is stuck in a pew, or plastic bucket chair, and is obliged to stand, sit or kneel when everyone else does, join in the chants when everyone else does, pray when everyone else does.  The modern laity really has no freedom at all in such a collectivised liturgy.

Whereas in the pew-less church space, where strong boundaries between the scared and the profane are maintained, the laity are free to 'participate' in the liturgy at their own pace and in their own way.

Is there any way you could experiment with this type of liturgical space, by improvising its basic characteristics.  Could this be the beginning of new liturgical movement? Would a pew-less church space require a Rood Screen?  I think it would.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 

Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2019, 01:51:19 PM »
Are there any Roman Catholic Churches without pews still in existence?

If only there were.

I've never been able to find out why and when the Church introduced pews and abandoned the Rood Screen.

It's worth attending an Eastern Orthodox Mass in a Church without pews and with a full iconostasis, just to get an idea of how the liturgy would have been experienced by Catholics throughout the Medieval period.

Humourously enough, because of your comments in this thread I was doing a bit of research to find Orthodox or Eastern Rite parishes in proximity of my workplace and home for that reason...Sadly most of them seem to have pews. I guess theprotestant infection has really made a mark up here.
 
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2019, 04:38:23 PM »
Is there any way you could experiment with this type of liturgical space, by improvising its basic characteristics.  Could this be the beginning of new liturgical movement? Would a pew-less church space require a Rood Screen?  I think it would.

I would most certainly want to be part of this! Realistically though, it would only come to fruition if I won the lottery and personally paid for the renovation of a parish myself.

St. Getrude the Great in Ohio appears to have at least a partial semblance of a rood screen. I cannot imagine attending mass there though.
 
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Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2019, 11:19:46 AM »
Humourously enough, because of your comments in this thread I was doing a bit of research to find Orthodox or Eastern Rite parishes in proximity of my workplace and home for that reason...Sadly most of them seem to have pews. I guess theprotestant infection has really made a mark up here.

Keep in mind that many Orthodox churches in the US were formerly Protestant church buildings that got re-purposed. It's not common for an Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) community to be big enough and rich enough to commission its own building outright.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2019, 11:26:16 AM »
Don't you think it's ironic that the modern liturgical reformers claim to be liberating the laity and yet everyone is stuck in a pew, or plastic bucket chair, and is obliged to stand, sit or kneel when everyone else does, join in the chants when everyone else does, pray when everyone else does.  The modern laity really has no freedom at all in such a collectivised liturgy.

Whereas in the pew-less church space, where strong boundaries between the scared and the profane are maintained, the laity are free to 'participate' in the liturgy at their own pace and in their own way.

Is there any way you could experiment with this type of liturgical space, by improvising its basic characteristics.  Could this be the beginning of new liturgical movement? Would a pew-less church space require a Rood Screen?  I think it would.

Yes, I don't like the rigid insistence on everyone doing the same thing all the time. This is why, with the issue of dialogue Masses, I don't care if people choose not to verbally respond. (Even if I'm just in the congregation myself, I don't necessarily always do every time.) But I don't think it's right to complain about others who do, or give them dirty glances, or whatever.

Traddies get needlessly worked up over other related issues, like whether or not everyone follows all the kneeling/standing directions given in the red Ecclesia Dei booklets (some of which are just made up by the compilers of that book, anyway, and don't even correspond with the official postures for being in-choir).
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2019, 12:14:43 PM »
Since the introduction of the notion of active participation of the laity in the first decades of the 20th century, we were bound to have congregational responses and standardized postures.

It was inevitable, hence the authorization given to the dialogue mass. But since the dialogue mass is still in Latin, and most people just mumble the responses away, the next logical step would be the use of the vernacular and, to that effect, a few indults were given even before Vatican II to German and Croatian dioceses, if memory serves me correctly.

While I don't object to the dialogue mass itself in principle, I personally prefer the mass where the congregation has the freedom to follow the mass on their own and pray some devotions if needs be. I've attended such a mass in Germany once in a SSPX chapel and the silence is much more profound.

As for the pews, although some of you lament them as a Protestant innovation, I welcome them. Not all innovations are bad. To attend a long mass standing or simply kneeling on the floor is uncomfortable. You could sit on the floor, of course, but the pews give an orderly scheme to it. And it's just more comfortable. I don't believe the mass has to be a physical penance in and of itself.
ΠΙΣΤΟΣ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΣΗΣ ΑΠΟΔΟΧΗΣ ΑΞΙΟΣ, ΟΤΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΗΛΘΕΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΚΟΣΜΟΝ ΑΜΑΡΤΩΛΟΥΣ ΣΩΣΑΙ: ΩΝ ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΕΙΜΙ ΕΓΩ
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2019, 12:40:17 PM »
And the invention of the microphone has influenced aswell. I personally like the idea of dialogue mass. And I would like to get rid of the pews, then the toddlers can walk around without distracting
 
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2019, 01:03:18 PM »
Humourously enough, because of your comments in this thread I was doing a bit of research to find Orthodox or Eastern Rite parishes in proximity of my workplace and home for that reason...Sadly most of them seem to have pews. I guess theprotestant infection has really made a mark up here.

Keep in mind that many Orthodox churches in the US were formerly Protestant church buildings that got re-purposed. It's not common for an Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) community to be big enough and rich enough to commission its own building outright.

I suppose it would be the same up in the hinterland here, so that makes sense. I actually was able to find a few Coptic and Ethiopian Orthodox churches here in Ontario without pews, both of these being huge communities in certain cities.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2019, 01:09:42 PM »
I found the citation from the Penitential of Burchard that I was thinking of earlier and attached it here. See item 145.
 

Offline QuaeriteDominum

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2019, 01:14:08 PM »
Quote from: Harlequin King
I don't think low Masses should be celebrated at all on Sundays and major feasts.
This is not always practical. In Syracuse, we have 4 Masses on Sunday beginning at 6:30AM. Only one of them is a Sung Mass. It would be nearly impossible for them to all be Sung Masses.

Quote from: Wikipedia
In 1922, the Holy See gave approval to the practice whereby "at least in religious houses and institutions for youth, all people assisting at the Mass make the responses at the same time with the acolytes", a practice that it declared praiseworthy in view of the evident desire expressed in papal documents "to instil into the souls of the faithful a truly Christian and collective spirit, and prepare them for active participation.

Again at Blessed Virgin Mary in Syracuse, in the spirit of the above citation, the daily Mass for high school boys is a dialogue Mass. All of the students respond with the altar servers to the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar, the Suscipiat, Domine Non Sum Dignus, etc.  They are all expected to learn to serve Mass at the Altar from 3rd grade onward and this helps them prepare at least the memorization of the Latin responses. It is also intended to help foster the consideration of a priestly vocation (since 2014, four priests have been ordained from this chapel and there are currently 7 young men from the school/parish in the Seminary). However, the Dialogue Mass is not used at any other Low Mass.

And a brief comment on rubrics - remember that they are technically the instructions (in red) in the Missale Romanum used by the priest at the altar. The rubrics contain no instruction for anyone else - not people, not servers, not even the sacred ministers at a Solemn High Mass, nor do they tell the faithful when to sing, respond, sit, stand, kneel, nor when the Acolyte rings the bells. The rubrics are instructions for the priest on how to offer the Holy Sacrifice. Everything else is not rubrical but rather custom, as directed by the local Ordinary with guidance from the Holy See.
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2019, 01:14:40 PM »
But since the dialogue mass is still in Latin, and most people just mumble the responses

I my experience this is not the case. There will be a few trying to really make the mass about themselves and yell out the priests part with varying degrees of correct Latin prouciation. Hearing the boomers pipe up saying "DOMEEN-EH NON SUM DIG-NOOS" along with the priest.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2019, 01:18:10 PM »
But since the dialogue mass is still in Latin, and most people just mumble the responses

I my experience this is not the case. There will be a few trying to really make the mass about themselves and yell out the priests part with varying degrees of correct Latin prouciation. Hearing the boomers pipe up saying "DOMEEN-EH NON SUM DIG-NOOS" along with the priest.

Yes, there are those.

But the majority just mumbles it away, with varying degrees of proficiency.
ΠΙΣΤΟΣ Ο ΛΟΓΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΣΗΣ ΑΠΟΔΟΧΗΣ ΑΞΙΟΣ, ΟΤΙ ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΗΛΘΕΝ ΕΙΣ ΤΟΝ ΚΟΣΜΟΝ ΑΜΑΡΤΩΛΟΥΣ ΣΩΣΑΙ: ΩΝ ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΕΙΜΙ ΕΓΩ
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2019, 01:18:33 PM »
As for the pews, although some of you lament them as a Protestant innovation, I welcome them. Not all innovations are bad. To attend a long mass standing or simply kneeling on the floor is uncomfortable. You could sit on the floor, of course, but the pews give an orderly scheme to it. And it's just more comfortable. I don't believe the mass has to be a physical penance in and of itself.

'The weak can go to the wall'.

In a pew-less Medieval church there were benches along the side walls for those who needed to sit.  Hence the above expression.

Besides, the Protestants didn't introduce pews for the comfort of the laity.  They introduced pews because the new Protestant services consisted of little more than readings, sermons and hymns and the laity had to be able to sit still and listen.

The Russian Orthodox Sunday Mass I attended was in a former Anglican Church.  The pews had simply been removed and an iconostasis installed.  And yes, there were benches along the walls in the side aisles.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 
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Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2019, 01:28:05 PM »
This is not always practical. In Syracuse, we have 4 Masses on Sunday beginning at 6:30AM. Only one of them is a Sung Mass. It would be nearly impossible for them to all be Sung Masses.

One does what they must. Of course, as a schola director, I would not want to be tasked with cantoring 4 Masses on a Sunday. But I also believe a parish shouldn't offer more Sunday Masses than are needed for all the faithful to attend them. If that really requires 4 Masses, so be it (and great that they have so many people!). But if the number of Masses is more for convenience, I think we need to wean away from that mentality. Of course, a typical medieval village church only had one Sunday Mass, preceded by the public Matins and Lauds. The Eastern churches still do this, and not only because of low numbers. They adhere to a "fasting altar" rule (only one Divine Liturgy per altar per day).
 

Offline QuaeriteDominum

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2019, 01:38:56 PM »
In our case, until we complete a new facility, we can only accommodate 150 at one Mass and we have close to 500 parishioners. Attendance at most Masses is fairly even. The latest Mass is the sparsest and is usually attended by those who may work overnight (nurses and doctors primarily) and travelers.
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