Author Topic: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass  (Read 907 times)

Offline Stefano

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Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« on: January 09, 2019, 09:43:44 AM »
Hello everyone,

In all of the Dioceses around me (Ontario, Canada), any parish that does offer the Tridentine Mass employs the "dialogue" form, where the congregation will say the altar server (and even somtimes Priest) parts. I know this is a notable abuse of the Liturgy, and I find it to be exceptionally irreverent and annoying. Is this commonplace at parishes that celebrate both the Mass of All Time and the Novus Ordo?

I attend a non-Diocesan apostolate for my Sunday and Holy Day obligations (as it is about 130km from me), and feel hindered from attending other Masses closer to me because of the abovementioned. Should I petition the priests with my concern?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:21:18 AM by Stefano »
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 10:43:04 AM »
Are you sure it's an abuse? I'm no expert, but I don't think the rubrics forbid the congregation from audibly saying the response. (Though the congregation should never say the priest's part.)

Also, while the practice is a novelty, I think it has more to do with geography than it has to do with whether or not the parish is NO. If I recall correctly, I think the practice began somewhere in France some time before Vatican II and then it spread to other areas. Which is why in our day it's commonplace in some parishes and unheard of in other parishes.

I personally would not bring it up with the priest.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:47:01 AM by Daniel »
 

Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 10:48:40 AM »
Hello everyone,

In all of the Dioceses around me (Ontario, Canada), any parish that does offer the Tridentine Mass employs the "dialogue" form, where the congregation will say the altar server (and even somtimes Priest) parts. I know this is a notable abuse of the Liturgy, and I find it to be exceptionally irreverent and annoying. Is this commonplace at parishes that celebrate both the Mass of All Time and the Novus Ordo?

I attend a non-Diocesan apostolate for my Sunday and Holy Day obligations (as it is about 130km from me), and feel hindered from attending other Masses closer to me because of the abovementioned. Should I petition the priests with my concern?


In my experience the dialogue Mass does not just happen. What I mean by that is that at some point a Priest came in, and actively pushed, catechized and pushed from the pulpit (often for an extended period of time) before people started to make the Responses.

Once people start making the responses you will not get them to stop unless, once again, a priest comes in, actively pushes against from the pulpit to stop. 

If you consider the "Dialogue Mass" an abuse (and I know people who do) while you are not alone in your opinion, it is just that, an opinion there is nothing authoritative that you can bring to a priest to say "This must stop now in the name of Holy Mother the Church!" .  The Dialogue Mass is an allowed form of celebrating a Low Mass, there is a lot of literature on the topic should you be inclined to see how my opinion was formed on this matter, http://www.romanitaspress.com/on-the-dialogue-mass, I think you will find these articles which are linked to on this page are scholarly.


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Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 11:04:58 AM »
I know this is a notable abuse of the Liturgy, and I find it to be exceptionally irreverent and annoying.

Whether it's annoying or not is subjective, but it's not an abuse. The norms for dialogue low Mass were laid out by the Sacred Congregation for Rites (the pre-conciliar counterpart to the modern CDW) in 1958 in De musica sacra: https://adoremus.org/1958/09/03/instruction-on-sacred-music/

Quote
31. A final method of participation, and the most perfect form, is for the congregation to make the liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest, thus holding a sort of dialogue with him, and reciting aloud the parts which properly belong to them.

There are four degrees or stages of this participation:

a) First, the congregation may make the easier liturgical responses to the prayers of the priest: Amen; Et cum spiritu tuo; Deo gratias; Gloria tibi Domine; Laus tibi, Christe; Habemus ad Dominum; Dignum et justum est; Sed libera nos a malo;
b) Secondly, the congregation may also say prayers, which, according to the rubrics, are said by the server, including the Confiteor, and the triple Domine non sum dignus before the faithful receive Holy Communion;
c) Thirdly, the congregation may say aloud with the celebrant parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Gloria in excelsis Deo; Credo; Sanctus-Benedictus; Agnus Dei;
d) Fourthly, the congregation may also recite with the priest parts of the Proper of the Mass: Introit, Gradual, Offertory, Communion. Only more advanced groups who have been well trained will be able to participate with becoming dignity in this manner.

32. Since the Pater Noster is a fitting, and ancient prayer of preparation for Communion, the entire congregation may recite this prayer in unison with the priest in low Masses; the Amen at the end is to be said by all. This is to be done only in Latin, never in the vernacular.

33. The faithful may sing hymns during low Mass, if they are appropriate to the various parts of the mass.


Now, I'm not a legal positivist, so I'm not asserting that "legislation of the moment" is always the final answer. (I'm not a fan of most of the post-1955 Holy Week revisions, for example.) That said, verbal responses to Mass have been the norm longer than they haven't. There are medieval penitential manuals that prescribe penances for those who confessed to failing to respond at Mass.
 
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 11:45:39 AM »
Thank you so much for your replies, and for all the information.

Having spoken to priests from different non-diocesan parishes, I was completely under the impression that the dialogue mass was illcit. This was reinforced by only hearing it in diocesan churches that also celebrate the Novis Ordo, where the congregations are notably irreverent (talking before and during Mass, for instance). Contrastingly, any time I have attended a Low Mass with the FSSP, SSPX or ICRSS, it has been the beautiful contemplative silence that I have now learned is merely my preference.

I appreciate deeply the fraternal correction from all of you.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 12:07:33 PM »
Thank you so much for your replies, and for all the information.

Having spoken to priests from different non-diocesan parishes, I was completely under the impression that the dialogue mass was illcit. This was reinforced by only hearing it in diocesan churches that also celebrate the Novis Ordo, where the congregations are notably irreverent (talking before and during Mass, for instance). Contrastingly, any time I have attended a Low Mass with the FSSP, SSPX or ICRSS, it has been the beautiful contemplative silence that I have now learned is merely my preference.

I appreciate deeply the fraternal correction from all of you.

You're welcome. At most, it can be said that dialogue low Mass may not be the preference of most priests in those societies. On the other hand, there are some who do promote it. And in my experience, most FSSP priests do promote some level of congregational singing at sung/solemn Mass. The Campion Missal/Hymnal published by Corpus Christi Watershed, with the endorsement of the FSSP, is evidence of that (it contains the full Kyriale for singing the Ordinary of the Mass in Gregorian chant).

It's also to be expected that people who make the effort to travel out to parishes run by the FSSP et al. are, on average, more likely to want a restrained, contemplative experience of the liturgy. A lot of them are weary of the noisiness of the Novus Ordo and want a completely-opposite experience. Nevertheless, the dialogue low Mass is a licit option.

I think the most sensible option for a dialogue low Mass is level c) as outlined by the document I quoted before. The Propers were always meant to be sung by a choir alone, so it doesn't make sense for the whole congregation to recit them. But the Kyrie, Gloria, etc. are certainly fitting, since the congregation might also sing them in a sung/solemn Mass.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 01:50:54 PM »

In my experience the dialogue Mass does not just happen. What I mean by that is that at some point a Priest came in, and actively pushed, catechized and pushed from the pulpit (often for an extended period of time) before people started to make the Responses.

Good observation.


Once people start making the responses you will not get them to stop unless, once again, a priest comes in, actively pushes against from the pulpit to stop. 

This is probably a very accurate prediction.


If you consider the "Dialogue Mass" an abuse (and I know people who do) while you are not alone in your opinion, it is just that, an opinion there is nothing authoritative that you can bring to a priest to say "This must stop now in the name of Holy Mother the Church!" . 

This is the same argument used against all aspects of traditional Catholicism, "it's just your opinion."

The reality is that the "Dialog Mass" is not traditional. It simply was never done during all the long centuries of the Catholic Church. Then it was introduced during the lead-up to Vatican II when all the innovations were being tested out.
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 01:54:13 PM »

The norms for dialogue low Mass were laid out by the Sacred Congregation for Rites (the pre-conciliar counterpart to the modern CDW) in 1958 in De musica sacra: https://adoremus.org/1958/09/03/instruction-on-sacred-music/

Here is the crux of the matter: 1958.

If you want to avoid this abuse, find a traditional venue where they don't use the 1962 innovations.

I was very happy the other day to see the posts from several participants here on SD who report that many groups are returning to the pre-1955 liturgy, including some groups "in union with Rome."
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 02:15:08 PM »
This is the same argument used against all aspects of traditional Catholicism, "it's just your opinion."

The reality is that the "Dialog Mass" is not traditional. It simply was never done during all the long centuries of the Catholic Church. Then it was introduced during the lead-up to Vatican II when all the innovations were being tested out.

I don't think low Masses should be celebrated at all on Sundays and major feasts, but for the time being, they, and the dialogue form of low Mass, are licit. That was the main issue.

There were really quite a few variations of low Mass in the period from 1500-1900. The German Mass with paraphrase hymns, the French organ Mass, and so on.

In the same comment I left earlier, I stated that congregational responses at Mass have been done longer than they haven't. The Penitential of Burchard is one clear example. Now, yes, in medieval times, the Mass was more commonly sung than recited. But the principle of making verbal responses at Mass are well-established in the medieval Church.

Likewise, most of the Eastern rites have congregational responses (sung) for the Divine Liturgy.
 
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2019, 02:26:02 PM »
I've only been to SSPX Masses here in the US but I've heard that the "Dialogue" Mass is common at SSPX Masses in France. I dislike it because it does seem to me just another way to get people "participating" as if silently contemplating the Mass is not participating. As Max said, it was a novelty before the Novelty of Novelties, the N.O. Mass.
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Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 03:04:45 PM »
I've only been to SSPX Masses here in the US but I've heard that the "Dialogue" Mass is common at SSPX Masses in France. I dislike it because it does seem to me just another way to get people "participating" as if silently contemplating the Mass is not participating. As Max said, it was a novelty before the Novelty of Novelties, the N.O. Mass.

I already said that the medieval Penitential of Burchard assigned penance for failing to make the responses at Mass (bread and water, I forget how many days).

The 1499 Ordo of John Burchard (different than the Burchard mentioned before), papal master of ceremonies, also assumes that the congregation responds at Mass. This Ordo was the prototype for the Tridentine Missal of 1570.

The Eastern rites likewise have a continuous tradition of congregational responses in the Divine Liturgy.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 03:19:56 PM »
And in my experience, most FSSP priests do promote some level of congregational singing at sung/solemn Mass. The Campion Missal/Hymnal published by Corpus Christi Watershed, with the endorsement of the FSSP, is evidence of that (it contains the full Kyriale for singing the Ordinary of the Mass in Gregorian chant).
How else would it be done? Either I'm not very observant, or that's just how the high Mass is: the schola sings the priest's part, and the choir (including the congregation) sings the responses.
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2019, 03:36:19 PM »
I already said that the medieval Penitential of Burchard assigned penance for failing to make the responses at Mass (bread and water, I forget how many days).

But what exactly were the responses at Mass that the laity were supposed to make?  Were they verbal responses, or responses relating to bodily position such as kneeling or genuflecting?

It just seems strange that the Medieval laity were expected to respond to the sacred ministers when they were on opposite sides of the Rood Screen.

How did it work in practice?

Quote
The 1499 Ordo of John Burchard (different than the Burchard mentioned before), papal master of ceremonies, also assumes that the congregation responds at Mass. This Ordo was the prototype for the Tridentine Missal of 1570.

A Rood Screen separating sanctuary and nave was very much the norm throughout Medieval Europe.  You need to explain how the aim of creating such a separation squares with the laity's involvement in the liturgy of the Solemn Mass.

Post the evidence because without out it, your claims don't compute.
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2019, 03:37:30 PM »
I dislike it because it does seem to me just another way to get people "participating" as if silently contemplating the Mass is not participating.

This is precisely my qualm.
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: Dialogue at Diocesan Mass
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2019, 03:58:31 PM »
I already said that the medieval Penitential of Burchard assigned penance for failing to make the responses at Mass (bread and water, I forget how many days).

But what exactly were the responses at Mass that the laity were supposed to make?  Were they verbal responses, or responses relating to bodily position such as kneeling or genuflecting?

It just seems strange that the Medieval laity were expected to respond to the sacred ministers when they were on opposite sides of the Rood Screen.

How did it work in practice?

Quote
The 1499 Ordo of John Burchard (different than the Burchard mentioned before), papal master of ceremonies, also assumes that the congregation responds at Mass. This Ordo was the prototype for the Tridentine Missal of 1570.

A Rood Screen separating sanctuary and nave was very much the norm throughout Medieval Europe.  You need to explain how the aim of creating such a separation squares with the laity's involvement in the liturgy of the Solemn Mass.

Post the evidence because without out it, your claims don't compute.

From my little knowledge I would say that rood screen were not the norm. Every diocese had their pecularities, I think St Pius V made the mass more uniformed across Europe.