Author Topic: Age boys need to leave  (Read 2474 times)

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #45 on: January 10, 2019, 10:59:11 PM »
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

Manual labor did not disappear, it simply moved to China which employs hundreds of millions in factory labor.  It moved to South America and Southeast Asian countries which employ countless in farming food for Americans to eat.  America is the empire and is largely shielded from seeing the vast quantity of manual labor it takes to live the American suburban life.  That labor still goes on, its just 10,000 miles away - out of sight out of mind.  I note that the story-of-the-day, which is Amazon, is not about how to produce things, its merely how to use technology to get things which are already produced to us.  But without that Chinaman first making it, it isn't around for Amazon & UPS' robots to quickly get to our doorstep.

If America was not run by short-sighted oligarchs for oligarchs then perhaps it would fix its trade practices and then the manual labor, which never evaporated, merely relocated, would be seen in America again.  Over 90% of seafood eaten in America is from overseas.  We have two gigantic oceans, plentiful rivers and lakes, a big gulf, and yet we do not employ men to fish it.  Did we stop eating fish?  No, we just are the empire and have opted to have others do it for us, and rack up colossal debt to do so.  In 2017 we apparently imported the largest amount of seafood ever, 6 billion pounds worth, valued at over $22 billion USD - all of that manual labor to produce such vast a mountain of fish was performed, and will be performed going forward, but its merely shielded from Americans' sensitive eyes.  That labor could be done by Americans.

The U.S. imports over 4 billion pounds of food from China each year.  Its a staggering amount of food that took a staggering amount of Chinese labor to produce.  Again, its merely shielded from our eyes.  Most are not even aware that the food they buy in the grocery store is Chinese, because labeling does not require much fresh produce to be labeled as to its origin.  Nor does it require the origin of parts of processed food to be labeled.  If anyone cares, that apple juice is Chinese.  That Vitamin C is from mainland China.  Mainland China is a mega farmer of USDA organic (its just a label, not actually an indicator of where it was grown, woops!).
 
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Offline Archer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #46 on: January 10, 2019, 11:00:27 PM »
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

That’s so clearly not what I said.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #47 on: January 10, 2019, 11:24:15 PM »
In our lifetime and the lifetimes of our children, there will remain a demand for skilled trades of the modern-classic variety (welding, plumbing, electrician, etc.).

Those things are not currently able to be automated, and require rationality in a way which is not yet programmable nor at what current AI can do in a market-based sense. Maybe, just maybe, in a lab environment. But real world? No way.

Most people have no business in college, and college needs to get away from being a business.

But no fear, a global pandemic that is untreatable with medication will take care of most of those useless degree holders. :D



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Offline diaduit

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2019, 04:43:52 AM »
At what age do you start encouraging your child to develop their Faith and morals, to stand up to the modern sinning society?  when does mammy let their son be responsible for their own soul?
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2019, 05:45:26 AM »
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.

Manual labor did not disappear, it simply moved to China which employs hundreds of millions in factory labor.  It moved to South America and Southeast Asian countries which employ countless in farming food for Americans to eat.  America is the empire and is largely shielded from seeing the vast quantity of manual labor it takes to live the American suburban life.  That labor still goes on, its just 10,000 miles away - out of sight out of mind.  I note that the story-of-the-day, which is Amazon, is not about how to produce things, its merely how to use technology to get things which are already produced to us.  But without that Chinaman first making it, it isn't around for Amazon & UPS' robots to quickly get to our doorstep.

If America was not run by short-sighted oligarchs for oligarchs then perhaps it would fix its trade practices and then the manual labor, which never evaporated, merely relocated, would be seen in America again.  Over 90% of seafood eaten in America is from overseas.  We have two gigantic oceans, plentiful rivers and lakes, a big gulf, and yet we do not employ men to fish it.  Did we stop eating fish?  No, we just are the empire and have opted to have others do it for us, and rack up colossal debt to do so.  In 2017 we apparently imported the largest amount of seafood ever, 6 billion pounds worth, valued at over $22 billion USD - all of that manual labor to produce such vast a mountain of fish was performed, and will be performed going forward, but its merely shielded from Americans' sensitive eyes.  That labor could be done by Americans.

The U.S. imports over 4 billion pounds of food from China each year.  Its a staggering amount of food that took a staggering amount of Chinese labor to produce.  Again, its merely shielded from our eyes.  Most are not even aware that the food they buy in the grocery store is Chinese, because labeling does not require much fresh produce to be labeled as to its origin.  Nor does it require the origin of parts of processed food to be labeled.  If anyone cares, that apple juice is Chinese.  That Vitamin C is from mainland China.  Mainland China is a mega farmer of USDA organic (its just a label, not actually an indicator of where it was grown, woops!).

Ooh! Ooh! Do the UK next! They're way better than the US at food importation. We only import ~15% but that cantankerous (and hungry!) Limey lot import 48% (https://www.foodsecurity.ac.uk/challenge/uk-threat/)! We screw up our numbers by exporting ALOT too :(

Based on your post, we practically produce nothing and that's patently untrue.
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2019, 06:57:34 AM »
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Lostkingdom.com in its own words: "Worldbuilding, Roleplaying and Fantasy Writing Resources". Yeah, talk about shooting oneself in the foot before even getting ones gun out its holster, smartass.

Quote
Eight centuries of annual hours
13th century - Adult male peasant, U.K.: 1620 hours

Calculated from Gregory Clark's estimate of 150 days per family, assumes 12 hours per day, 135 days per year for adult male ("Impatience, Poverty, and Open Field Agriculture", mimeo, 1986)

14th century - Casual laborer, U.K.: 1440 hours

Calculated from Nora Ritchie's estimate of 120 days per year. Assumes 12-hour day. ("Labour conditions in Essex in the reign of Richard II", in E.M. Carus-Wilson, ed., Essays in Economic History, vol. II, London: Edward Arnold, 1962).

Middle ages - English worker: 2309 hours

Juliet Schor's estime of average medieval laborer working two-thirds of the year at 9.5 hours per day

1400-1600 - Farmer-miner, adult male, U.K.: 1980 hours

Calculated from Ian Blanchard's estimate of 180 days per year. Assumes 11-hour day ("Labour productivity and work psychology in the English mining industry, 1400-1600", Economic History Review 31, 23 (1978).

1840 - Average worker, U.K.: 3105-3588 hours

Based on 69-hour week; hours from W.S. Woytinsky, "Hours of labor," in Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, vol. III (New York: Macmillan, 1935). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1850 - Average worker, U.S.: 3150-3650 hours

Based on 70-hour week; hours from Joseph Zeisel, "The workweek in American industry, 1850-1956", Monthly Labor Review 81, 23-29 (1958). Low estimate assumes 45 week year, high one assumes 52 week year

1987 - Average worker, U.S.: 1949 hours

From The Overworked American: The Unexpected Decline of Leisure, by Juliet B. Schor, Table 2.4

1988 - Manufacturing workers, U.K.: 1856 hours

Calculated from Bureau of Labor Statistics data, Office of Productivity and Technology

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html

Nobody in his right state of mind would deny that life today for the average Westerner is world's apart from that of the Middle Ages in terms of material comfort and stability. But your characterisation of work then is simply wrong, and your estimation of the marginal utility of hours spent working in the field to avoid a failed crop doesn't really make sense to me, especially given that most famines in those times were caused by unavoidable weather factors and population pressure, but then I'm not too knowledgeable about agriculture and crop farming. Are you?.

Quote
Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

That's  not what he said.


Quote
So this is all anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda I suppose.  Nobody really died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315%E2%80%9317

But you're welcome to your delusions.  The rest of us will get along with living our lives.

What's your point?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-018-0078-0

Quote
We analyse in detail the famines in England, France and Italy during 1300–1850, and find strong evidence that before 1710 high population pressure on resources was by far the most frequent remote cause of famines (while the proximate cause was almost invariably meteorological).

What does any this have to do with traditional social and familial structures and ideas of adequate manhood? How are these linked to inferior methods of agricultural production of the Middle Ages? And what does lauding Medieval Zeitgeist and values have to do with wanting to travel back in time to live as a Medieval peasant?


« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 07:00:14 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline dymphnaw

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2019, 09:56:20 AM »
 
[/quote]

No, he's not wrong. The idea of children who have come of age moving out of the family home and going their own way as the normal course of things is absolutely a modern American idea that has now been popularised through the global dominance of Anglo-American culture. The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents. The points on the the delayed maturity of younger generations aside, it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.
[/quote]
 America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again. I know of an elderly couple who have a 30 year old son still at home. He's works but contributes nothing. He's lazy and lives like he did when he was five. I also know a man who lived with his mother until she died but he was taking care of her financially and let his girlfriend know that his disabled mother would have a home with him or the marriage was off.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #52 on: January 11, 2019, 10:48:50 AM »
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Quote
I know of an elderly couple who have a 30 year old son still at home. He's works but contributes nothing. He's lazy and lives like he did when he was five. I also know a man who lived with his mother until she died but he was taking care of her financially and let his girlfriend know that his disabled mother would have a home with him or the marriage was off.

Yes. Circumstances are everything.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2019, 10:59:35 AM »
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

Yes, we know: rootless Protestants who spat on tradition and had no qualms about committing systematic genocide against reprobate inferior races in order to win the West. They even constructed a pseudo-theology out of it, namely American Exceptionalism, with the caveat that "American" meant "white" and "not Catholic", just like the Calvinists did in South Africa.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #54 on: January 11, 2019, 11:04:35 AM »
This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Because raping, looting, pillaging pagans who liked a bit human sacrifice to top off their sport of "kill the Christian" weren't decadent ...

Between pre-Christian barbarism and post-Christian barbarism sits, of all things, Christianity.
 

Offline The Harlequin King

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #55 on: January 11, 2019, 11:12:46 AM »
This really distills the entire difference between Europe and the US in one sentence. That said, the more generations we're removed from the pioneers, the more America becomes like the empires of old. (Just as Europe grew fat and decadent the further it was removed from the nomadic Goths, the Norman Conquest, the Vikings, whatever you like.)

Because raping, looting, pillaging pagans who liked a bit human sacrifice to top off their sport of "kill the Christian" weren't decadent ...

Between pre-Christian barbarism and post-Christian barbarism sits, of all things, Christianity.

Responses like this are why I don't post on Internet forums much anymore. This kind of anonymous snark, even towards people who agree with each other, has gotten old. Early in this thread, I commented with my general support of the idea of inter-generational living. I even like the idea of communal living with non-relatives. But I also understand why many Americans value the idea of independent living.
 
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Offline dymphnaw

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2019, 11:18:53 AM »
But America is different just like France is different from Lativia and Italy is different from Poland. People who were sick of endless war and penjury in Europe left and from 1607 on to the Ellis Island era they were familiar with having to leave their families and start fresh across the ocean. For good or for ill, the concept of leaving home to seek your fortune is ingrained.  And not all the colonists were Protestant. My Irish ancestors made it on their own in South Carolina in the 1800s. One more thing. The Catholic Spanish weren't all that great to the Indians. Look at TV on any Spanish channel and the heroine is always a Castilian Rose and the comic figure is always short, squat and dark. I can't think of any former  Catholic colonies from Haiti, New Orleans, Miami to  Honduras that aren't known for corruption, cruelty, violent crime  and poverty. 
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2019, 12:03:49 PM »
America was founded by people who left England and Europe never to see their parents again and then it was won by people who went West and never saw their families again.

Not just America. All of the New World.

It was part of the deal. The colonization period was a time rich in adventure and exploration, a time that doesn't come back and that can only be replicated if we were to colonize different planets in the future.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2019, 01:50:15 PM »
Responses like this are why I don't post on Internet forums much anymore. This kind of anonymous snark, even towards people who agree with each other, has gotten old. Early in this thread, I commented with my general support of the idea of inter-generational living. I even like the idea of communal living with non-relatives. But I also understand why many Americans value the idea of independent living.

Same here.
Reading comprehension seems to have also taken a dive.
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2019, 02:28:05 PM »
Well, I am glad you are both commenting here.

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