Author Topic: Age boys need to leave  (Read 2463 times)

Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2019, 09:37:47 AM »
I moved out at 22 on the day of my marriage. A lot of my advantages in life came from the sacrifices my parents made for me, especially as a young adult.

My Father got me employment off and on before I was 16 with computer tech, and web work for his office and clients.
My parents drove me to and from my first W2 job at 16, even before I could drive and continued to do so.
I graduated early from high school at 17, and decided to go to community college to save money.  When my employer broke a promise to me for a promotion (my parents pushed me) to get another job which resulted in my first full time IT job at 18. 

They then enabled me to work full time and go to school full time, by doing many things for me (laundry, cooking etc), and asking very little in return, some minor chores, some small amounts of money that had to do with the fact they could no longer claim me as a dependent do to my salary.  I was able to save my salary, and put a down payment on a home at an early age and get married.

My Wife, had a different experience, she moved out of home for good reason at 18, and even wound up taking in her younger siblings off and on over the years.  She did not go to college but entered the full time work force.  She only quite her job once we were engaged and she moved down to live in the house I had bought before we were married, (I stayed with my parents), so we could go through marriage formation with our priest.

I have seen people try the school of hard knocks approach with their kids.  Often times the parents having raised their children poorly feel that it is right to throw them out on their own at 18, or after graduation.  It sometimes works, and sometimes it fails with disaster consequences.  I have also seen children with every advantage from good homes squander those advantages through various forms of sin.

 I have also seen adult children, living with their parents, and their parents supporting a relationship which is obviously stunting to them, and makes their adult children infantile even though they have full time careers and make good incomes. This last one is to some degree the most harmful, but it takes two to tango, parents are choosing to be overbearing, and adult children are choosing to let them at this point. 

The last ugly situation is when Mom or Dad is a failure at their duties, and there being other children an older Child winds up supporting the family.

I don't think there is a rule of thumb, it really depends on all circumstances, but domestic harmony is important.  I think that parents and adult children should find the answer by seeking domestic harmony and having clearly defined roles within a household.   
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2019, 12:48:58 PM »

You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

You're repeating anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda about "progress." This was all disproven two centuries ago.
 - Medieval Christian peasants had more leisure than modern people.
 - No one ever starved.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2019, 01:26:20 PM »
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

This left the remaining third of the year for resting and for the celebration of the many and varied feasts and Holy Days of the Church Year.  According to numerous accounts, Europe would almost be on the move during pilgrimage season.  The Wife of Bath had been to Jerusalem three times, and to Rome and Santiago de Compostella.

The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'. 
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

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Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2019, 02:44:18 PM »

You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

You're repeating anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda about "progress." This was all disproven two centuries ago.
 - Medieval Christian peasants had more leisure than modern people.
 - No one ever starved.

So this is all anti-Catholic Masonic propaganda I suppose.  Nobody really died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1315%E2%80%9317

But you're welcome to your delusions.  The rest of us will get along with living our lives.
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2019, 02:49:11 PM »
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.
 

Offline Archer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2019, 02:57:44 PM »
A lot of you it seems are either yearning for a world that no longer exists or else a caricatured version of masculinity that no longer exists either except in the eyes of social conservatives.  Most 18-year-old men aren't ready to completely move out on their own, buy a house, start a family, and work as a manual laborer.  Does this mean they are necessarily "immature"?  Not at all.  Society has changed, and they are rightly changing with it.  That's true maturity, not clamoring for the return of a societal structure and attitudes which will not return.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a college undergraduate staying with his parents while he finishes school, if the location of the school is close enough to allow him to do that.  In fact it is quite sensible for him to do so, as by so doing he can avoid a whole bunch of student loan debt.  However, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with him leaving home if by so doing he obtains a much better educational opportunity.

And I guess that's my main point of disagreement with the traditionalist zeitgeist.  You are so focused on what the ideal should be (whether a young unmarried man should be at home or not, and praising manual labor to the skies) that you lose sight of reality.  And your ideal isn't really so ideal after all.  You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

This is not, in any way, a defense of the abuses of modern American capitalism, and you will find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like outsourcing, employing illegal immigrants, fictitiously moving profits to overseas jurisdictions to avoid taxes, etc.  This is a right wing blind spot.  Such practices should be severely punished.

Nor is it a defense of the abuses of modern American academia, and you will also find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like SJW cry-ins, safe spaces, affirmative action, and over and above all that the granting of garbage degrees (like Women's Studies) that qualify one only for teaching others to gain said garbage degree, while being employed at subsistence wages as an adjunct.  This is a left wing blind spot.

But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

And the facts of the matter are, whether you like it or not, that 1) Advances in technology have already rendered a lot of manual labor obsolete; 2) This trend is going to continue as computing power continues to grow and more advances are made in artificial intelligence, machine learning, etc.; 3) The gap between what highly skilled and educated people are able to produce and what unskilled people are able to produce is high and getting higher, and it isn't reasonable to expect that unskilled people should be able to profit from the labors of the skilled as much as the skilled themselves; 4) It takes quite a lot of time and effort to become really skilled at something.  For instance, a medical doctor (typically) goes to 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 2 or 3 years residency, then 1 year fellowship.  A lawyer has 4 years undergrad, typically 3 years law school, and some years as an associate slaving away.  A scientific researcher has 4 years undergrad, usually about 6 years grad school, then several years as as postdoc.

This is reality.

Buuuut, but, but, Steve Jobs, you will say - shows how much a college "education" is really worth.  The reality is that stories like his are so remarkable precisely because they are the exception.  For every Steve Jobs, there's thousands and tens of thousands whose tinkering in the garage resulted in nothing but trash taken at the next pickup.  True autodidacts are wonderful, incredibly talented and able people.  They're also very rare.

Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.  Pursuits such as finding new medical cures are worthwhile in their own right.

I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2019, 05:31:30 PM »
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

Why do you care if some people admire the Middle Ages?  Is there something intrinsically wrong about having a fondness for the Medieval period?  Some people go mad for the Greeks, or spend their lives studying the Hittites, or excavating pyramids.

Is that okay?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline james03

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2019, 06:29:07 PM »
Quote
But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

I believe that you are living in Europe.  This hasn't been the case in America since the time we were sending men to the moon and inventing things.  Today we are much more like Europe.  Men put off marriage until much later, which means a lot of fornication.  A lot of millennial males live at home and have no motivation to do much.

I moved out at 18 (college).  Tried to live at home freshman summer and couldn't do it, even though my parents were pretty cool.  Never lived with my parents after that again.  The main motivation was a feeling for being responsible for myself, and not having to depend on my parents anymore.  It was kind of like a passage to manhood.  Got married at 23.
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2019, 07:24:27 PM »
During the High Middle Ages, a typical peasant could house, feed and clothe his family to a reasonable level by the standards of the time by working for only two-thirds of the year. 

Yes, and what were those "standards of the time" (rather horrible) and what was nature of that work for that "two-thirds of the year" (grueling)?

https://www.lostkingdom.net/the-life-of-a-villager-during-the-middle-ages/


Quote
The claims  of the Protestant reformers and others re the Middle Ages is mere 'victor's propaganda'.

Of course.  Anything that reflects poorly on the golden Middle Ages must be mere propaganda.

Why do you care if some people admire the Middle Ages?  Is there something intrinsically wrong about having a fondness for the Medieval period?  Some people go mad for the Greeks, or spend their lives studying the Hittites, or excavating pyramids.

Is that okay?

There's a vast difference between taking an academic interest in a certain time period and romanticizing it. Quare is, I'm fairly certain, criticizing the latter and not the former.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2019, 07:29:34 PM »
What is the best for the salvation of your child's soul? Definitely sending you son or daughter to live in a dorm of a modern college, is putting them morally speaking, in a toxic environment. If your child wants to go to College or even a trade school, if at all possible, let them live at home and take classes or the trade course. The difference in maturity of an average 18 yr old vs. 22 year old (especially for men) is really big.  I know of a family whose father wants all of his kids to obtain an Engineering degree, so he moved his family near a big University with a good Engineering program; that way he has the kids at home, and at the same time they are obtaining their degree, with a minimum of contamination from the University milieu. 
I also agree that the idea that:  "Happiest day of my life, was when the last kid went off to College, and the dog died"; is a Protestant mindset.
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Offline james03

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2019, 07:54:17 PM »
Quote
Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.
  LOL.  This is a good strategy, and the irony is that the more you take care of yourself and pursue your interests, the more the women will come after you.  Being a pleasing simp will get you nowhere with the ladies.

I have to disagree with your "young men of today" claim.  SOME are discovering the manosphere where Gen X old salts rip them a new one and tell them to become men, but I don't think its a big number.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2019, 07:54:45 PM »
There's a vast difference between taking an academic interest in a certain time period and romanticizing it.

Agreed.

Quote
Quare is, I'm fairly certain, criticizing the latter and not the former.

Quare has made it perfectly clear that, in his opinion, anyone who admires the Middle Ages for its faith, art, architecture, world view etc, or who attempts to provide a counterbalance to the relentless criticism of the Medieval  period for things like their bad plumbing and busy summer work schedules, that person is necessarily possessed of a desire to travel back in time and live there.

He said so.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2019, 07:58:11 PM »
Quote
What is the best for the salvation of your child's soul?

We are in trying times.  The danger is overreaction, and this can't be discounted.  Trads who don't let their teenagers socialize are shocked when they turn 18, give up the Faith, and live a life of depravity.  That's why I advocate Trad communities to have youth programs, including swing dancing, and other mixed gender events, so that kids can HAVE FUN.  Of course you have adult supervision, but you have to give the kids a chance to socialize and have social activities.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2019, 10:40:07 PM »
I actually agree with a lot of your points.
As someone with an MBA, I understand the value of education.

I also understand and value manual labor. I think there is a place for education, just as there is a place for plumbers, electricians, and "waste managers."

I believe one of the biggest lies told to the last couple generations is, "you need to go to college."

But does that mean no one should go to college? Absolutely not. We need good leaders, good lawyers, good teachers, good doctors, just like we need good construction workers. It should all balance out.

You know it isn't balanced however, because 44 million "students" owe a combined $1.5 Trillion, while trades sit empty. https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/04/25/605092520/high-paying-trade-jobs-sit-empty-while-high-school-grads-line-up-for-university

I value manual labor too, but it's simply a fact there is and will be less demand for it in the future.  The idea that everyone can and should get a job in manual labor is not realistic.
 

Online Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2019, 10:41:07 PM »
Quote
But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

Just noting that its the excess energy provided primarily by fossil fuels that prevents us from living the hand-to-mouth existence.  People have always been smart, inquisitive and creative.  But without the excess energy to free them from such labor, they are unable to devote time towards these intellectual pursuits.  Excess energy is the base underlying it all.  This is not to say that having such energy alone gets us to where we are, for without people capable of utilizing it for production, it is useless.  But without the source of energy nothing is going to happen.  Smart people cannot pursue intellectual matters if they do not first have their time freed up from having to concern themselves with growing food.  The Romans had slaves and so they had excess time to build magnificent structures.  Modern man has fossil fuels so he can engineer many other marvels.