Author Topic: Age boys need to leave  (Read 1449 times)

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2019, 05:04:42 PM »
"Get them out the house by 18" is a peculiarly modern, especially American, and individualist mentality. Independence is not virtuous in and of itself, and in fact can be an occasion of sin (e.g. for most modern college students living away from home). But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

Wrong on the modern assessment. Boys turned into men much quicker "back in the day". They had vocational skills, maturity and physical strength to take  care of their ladies. Do you still be at home?
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Offline Josephine87

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2019, 12:19:44 AM »
Median marriage age for men in 1890s America was 26, almost a decade after 18.  Western Europeans marry a bit later than other cultures, both men and women. It makes sense those traditions persisted in the U.S.
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2019, 07:51:30 AM »
"Get them out the house by 18" is a peculiarly modern, especially American, and individualist mentality. Independence is not virtuous in and of itself, and in fact can be an occasion of sin (e.g. for most modern college students living away from home). But people today are so mad for independence that they don't even mind sending their daughters off to places where fornication & contraception is seen as practically a solemn duty.

Wrong on the modern assessment. Boys turned into men much quicker "back in the day". They had vocational skills, maturity and physical strength to take  care of their ladies. Do you still be at home?

No, he's not wrong. The idea of children who have come of age moving out of the family home and going their own way as the normal course of things is absolutely a modern American idea that has now been popularised through the global dominance of Anglo-American culture. The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents. The points on the the delayed maturity of younger generations aside, it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:04:53 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2019, 07:56:10 AM »
However, the age should be 22 if healthy physically and mentally. It does a disservice to a man's potential to stay with mom and dad(who do not need help).

Go tell that fantastic story to the vast majority of human beings who have ever lived. American exceptionalism is so entrenched in the minds of Americans that they even believe their particular social norms are the norms for humanity across time and space.


Example: my father and his brothers in central Europe. Two of them still live to this day on the land in the village of that once held the family house of their parents. One of my counsins lives in his parents home there with his wife and children, and two other cousins each live in separate houses built on that land. One brother moved elsewhere because he got land through his wife, and my father, the only one to go out and see the world, sold his portion. That's was NORMAL for Europe, and still is for most of the world (Latin America, Africa, most fo Asia)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 08:15:02 AM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2019, 08:26:12 AM »
... it's wrong to project radically individualistic Anglo-American notions of the normal course of life onto the rest of the world.

This happens all the time.  What happened to the extended, multi-generational family?  The Anglo-American suburban dream destroyed it.

But mass, single family houses are good for business, since each single family unit needs the full range of consumer goods. The single family suburban house is an invention of consumer capitalism
 
Anglo-American Trads love the very system that has destroyed their families and communities.  And then complain about those who have difficulty functioning in that system.
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2019, 09:01:53 AM »
Moved out at 18, moved back to help dad with the business, left for the monastery, and came back to help him again and stayed until I got married.

Honestly as long as your child is working and isn't lazy why push them out? I'm best buddies with my father and my father's friends who I grew up with at church. I learned about escaping the Ukraine during WWII, how to be patient from Paul, and many other virtues from older men I would never have learned otherwise. Young men need more wisdom in their life.

The REAL problem isn't your kid moving out, but the parents developing a work ethic for their kids and their children lovingly trying to have their own vision as well that works together between child and parent.

If your kid is working hard and a help around the house never push them out. You'll be their best influence and while they might have friends you'll always be the voice they trust. I would always want my kids home until they go to religious life or get married. They wash the dishes, clean the floors and help with small things since the age of 3.

My oldest is 10 and she can cook, sew, have a tea party for her friends and clean up for them afterwards. She tells a mean joke and loves reading to her smaller brothers and sisters. She can stay with me until she's ready to become a nun or get married.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 06:22:26 PM by bigbadtrad »
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2019, 09:40:20 AM »
Example: my father and his brothers in central Europe. Two of them still live to this day on the land in the village of that once held the family house of their parents. One of my counsins lives in his parents home there with his wife and children, and two other cousins each live in separate houses built on that land. One brother moved elsewhere because he got land through his wife, and my father, the only one to go out and see the world, sold his portion. That's was NORMAL for Europe, and still is for most of the world (Latin America, Africa, most fo Asia)

Exactly.  The family you describe is the norm.  Single family suburban living is the exception.
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Offline Archer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2019, 09:41:49 AM »
Joined the Coast Guard the day after my 18th birthday, only went back on leave. 

In theory though, if a son is working towards a short-term goal and paying his way I don't have a problem with it. Short term being the operative word. Too many people fly by "in the future" hopes and dreams. Set a goal, work hard for it, achieve success, and move on.

Girls are different.

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Offline Josephine87

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 02:48:01 PM »
The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents.

This must be the source of the "dreaded mother-in-law" stereotype!  I love mine, but I think of poor St. Monica living in her in-laws' pagan home.
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“My present trial seems to me a somewhat painful one, and I have the humiliation of knowing how badly I bore it at first. I now want to accept and to carry this little cross joyfully, to carry it silently, with a smile in my heart and on my lips, in union with the Cross of Christ. My God, blessed be Thou; accept from me each day the embarrassment, inconvenience, and pain this misery causes me. May it become a prayer and an act of reparation." -Elisabeth Leseur
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2019, 05:38:02 PM »
Joined the Coast Guard the day after my 18th birthday, only went back on leave. 

In theory though, if a son is working towards a short-term goal and paying his way I don't have a problem with it. Short term being the operative word. Too many people fly by "in the future" hopes and dreams. Set a goal, work hard for it, achieve success, and move on.

Girls are different.

There's always one son who wants to go to sea.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2019, 05:58:36 PM »
The historical norm in Europe was for sons to remain with and support the family and for daughters to only move out when married - to the home of the husband livign with his parents.

This must be the source of the "dreaded mother-in-law" stereotype!  I love mine, but I think of poor St. Monica living in her in-laws' pagan home.
 

Yeah. The fact that those two uncles of mine living next-door to each other haven't spoken in 20 years is another story ...  :pray2:
 

Offline christulsa

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2019, 08:03:45 PM »
If the young man is still considered a “boy,” then perhaps he needs more preparation to be an independent adult   :shrug:
 
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Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 10:21:40 PM »
Your classically Catholic countries, like Italy & Spain, all have cultures in which the children, as adults, remain with the parents or very close to the parents.  It is the American abnormality to desire for the kids to move far away and see them once or twice a year.  As I see it, its all a part of the designs of the elites to divide and conquer - destroy the family, destroy tradition, send the kids to college to be indoctrinated by marxists, get them hooked on sex, drugs and careerism, and sink them into slavery levels of debt - now you have a perfectly easily controllable populace.

I think the ideal situation is to have adult children live on the family land in a separate building.  The elders provide care for the grandkids and maybe some cooking, the adult children do the hard labor and care for the elder parents in their latter years.

In America the ideal is to move as far away from family as you can and then grumble and make jokes about seeing them during Thanksgiving.

For what its worth, I bought into it all, and moved across to the opposite side of the planet.  Thankfully my family followed several years later and we happily live in the same community.

Asians remain with or very near family as well, usually though its living together.  Its an American oddity, one perpetuated by and for the oligarchs, to their benefit, and almost all of us swallowed it hook, line and sinker.  The American dream is to break free from your roots and go your own way.  Baked into the pie from our very founding.  None of it seems Catholic.

America also perpetuates the belief that if you cannot make it on your own, you are a loser and have failed at life.  Again, not Catholic, as the purpose of life is to get to Heaven, and bring as many other souls there as you can.  America focuses on the material and looks down upon those whom have not the material success they have, all the while missing the big picture (perhaps because American society was formed by a bunch of people whom believed in sola fide, double predestination, and generic deism).
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2019, 03:57:09 AM »
If the young man is still considered a “boy,” then perhaps he needs more preparation to be an independent adult   :shrug:

You have to ask why is the young man considered a boy?  Maybe he needs to get out from behind mammas skirts.
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Age boys need to leave
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2019, 09:15:35 AM »
A lot of you it seems are either yearning for a world that no longer exists or else a caricatured version of masculinity that no longer exists either except in the eyes of social conservatives.  Most 18-year-old men aren't ready to completely move out on their own, buy a house, start a family, and work as a manual laborer.  Does this mean they are necessarily "immature"?  Not at all.  Society has changed, and they are rightly changing with it.  That's true maturity, not clamoring for the return of a societal structure and attitudes which will not return.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a college undergraduate staying with his parents while he finishes school, if the location of the school is close enough to allow him to do that.  In fact it is quite sensible for him to do so, as by so doing he can avoid a whole bunch of student loan debt.  However, there is also absolutely nothing wrong with him leaving home if by so doing he obtains a much better educational opportunity.

And I guess that's my main point of disagreement with the traditionalist zeitgeist.  You are so focused on what the ideal should be (whether a young unmarried man should be at home or not, and praising manual labor to the skies) that you lose sight of reality.  And your ideal isn't really so ideal after all.  You'd love to time travel back to the Middle Ages - until you realize, when you get there, you're only one bad harvest away from utter starvation - and to prevent that, you have to work all the time (pesticides, green revolution, etc., not having been invented yet, grain yields were only about 2 to 1 or so) during the growing season (and that means, not 8-hour days, but more like 15-hour days, etc., taking advantage of the long daylight during the summer months) just to be able to survive the winter.

This is not, in any way, a defense of the abuses of modern American capitalism, and you will find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like outsourcing, employing illegal immigrants, fictitiously moving profits to overseas jurisdictions to avoid taxes, etc.  This is a right wing blind spot.  Such practices should be severely punished.

Nor is it a defense of the abuses of modern American academia, and you will also find no stronger opponent than me regarding things like SJW cry-ins, safe spaces, affirmative action, and over and above all that the granting of garbage degrees (like Women's Studies) that qualify one only for teaching others to gain said garbage degree, while being employed at subsistence wages as an adjunct.  This is a left wing blind spot.

But.  That doesn't mean businesses and universities are in themselves bad, and the abuses are no excuse for calling for some type of socialism, or the claim that highly educated people really haven't learned anything, as we sometimes see on this forum.  Society is much better with them than without them.  It's why most of us aren't living a hand-to-mouth existence.

And the facts of the matter are, whether you like it or not, that 1) Advances in technology have already rendered a lot of manual labor obsolete; 2) This trend is going to continue as computing power continues to grow and more advances are made in artificial intelligence, machine learning, etc.; 3) The gap between what highly skilled and educated people are able to produce and what unskilled people are able to produce is high and getting higher, and it isn't reasonable to expect that unskilled people should be able to profit from the labors of the skilled as much as the skilled themselves; 4) It takes quite a lot of time and effort to become really skilled at something.  For instance, a medical doctor (typically) goes to 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 2 or 3 years residency, then 1 year fellowship.  A lawyer has 4 years undergrad, typically 3 years law school, and some years as an associate slaving away.  A scientific researcher has 4 years undergrad, usually about 6 years grad school, then several years as as postdoc.

This is reality.

Buuuut, but, but, Steve Jobs, you will say - shows how much a college "education" is really worth.  The reality is that stories like his are so remarkable precisely because they are the exception.  For every Steve Jobs, there's thousands and tens of thousands whose tinkering in the garage resulted in nothing but trash taken at the next pickup.  True autodidacts are wonderful, incredibly talented and able people.  They're also very rare.

Finally, young men of today are (rightly) rejecting the idea that their main, or only, standard of value is how useful they can be to women.  Pursuits such as finding new medical cures are worthwhile in their own right.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2019, 09:22:59 AM by Quaremerepulisti »
 
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