Author Topic: Fraternite Notre Dame  (Read 758 times)

Offline Sempronius

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2019, 02:09:30 PM »
Would it be naive to ask one of them if the bishop really can bilocate?
 

Online martin88nyc

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2019, 08:45:02 PM »
I know them and have been to their gift shop and bakery in Wilmette and also their bakery in Vernon Hills Mall. Their macarons are out of this world.

ETA: I also bought a couple of their books including the one which documents all the messages received from our Lady. I simply browsed though it and have not studied it intensively. However, I have yet to find any doctrinal issues. Therefore it could qualify as being approved by the Church if they were not sedevacantists.  :rofl:

I did not see any messages that told popes what to do.
I assume you are just teasing us  :)
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Online martin88nyc

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2019, 08:46:54 PM »
https://frfenton.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/the-athan-1995-jun.pdf

Quote
Then, on February 8, 1977, also in Toulon, it
was Jean Labmie 's turn to exploit Mgr. Tlmc
for a bishop's miter. Plior to this, Laborie
had been "consecrated" by Louis Cani,,et, a
man who "left [the Catholic Church] to
found his own church" and who "has
officiated at a satanist center in Lyons."
(Ibid., p. 1.) In Bishops at Large, the
9
definiti,,e study on the independent Old
Catholic schism, author Peter Anson devotes
a full chapter to churches emanating from the
consecrations of Arnold Hanis Mathew, the
sect leader who was excommunicated in 1911
by Pope St. Pius X. Of one such church, the
"Old Holy Catholic Church," he writes:
"The hierarchy [in Britain] at the time of
wliting consists of the Plimate, Bishops [R.
Dominic] Bruce and [William C.] CatoS ymonds, with Bishops Andre Enos and
Louis Canivet on the continent of Europe."
(October House, 1964, p. 391.) Securing the
episcopacy (or its appearance) from Canivet,
Labmie staited his own version of the sect,
the "Latin Catholic Church" in Toulouse. As
is the custom with Old Catholics, Laborie
then felt compelled to be "re-consecrated,"
and Mgr. Thuc was all too happy to oblige
him.
Another apostate, Claude Nanta de Torrini,
became a "bishop" that year through Mgr.
Thuc, who sometime later did the same for
two more Old Catholics (see note with next
quotation about the year). Concerning these
latter, Fr. Barbara has this to say in his
"Made in France" ai1icle:
As is common among sects, Roger
Kozik and Michel Fernandez were
also ordained (7) priests many
times over. After having been
ordained by Jean Laborie, they
were also ordained by Enos. Then,
on May 27. 1979, in Spain. a
bishop of the "pope of Pahnar de
Troya" ordained them priests and.
on the ve1y same day. consecrated
them bishops. Finally in 1981. for
the fourth time, Kozik and
Fernandez got themselves
consecrated by Archbishop Time.
(p. 2. Emphasis in the original.
According to a 1992 "family
tree" of "Thuc line Bishops" put
out by apologists. both Kozik and
Fernandez were "consecrated" by
Mgr. Thuc on October 19, 1978
not m 1981.)
Kozik claims that since 1971 the Blessed
Virgin Mary has given his "apostolate" her
seal of approval, making him (after
Dominguez) the second such pretender to be
beneficiary of the "simple" Vietnamese
prelate's generosity. (It was also at this time
that two Old Catholics-Gai·cia and Arbinet
were "ordained priests" by :rvigr. Thuc.)
In 1981, after all this damage has been done,
Mgr. Thuc got armmd to "consecrating" a
few Roman Catholics-Frs. Crumona, Adolfo
Zamora, and M L. Guerru·d de Lauriers, o. P.
Unfortunately, the following year he again
assisted apostates by giving "episcopal
orders" to one Christian Datessen, who, in
turn, six years later made the longtime Old
Catholic leader, Andre Enos, a Thuc-line
"bishop." What makes this even stranger is
that Enos, who in 1950 abandoned the
Church to join the schismatics, had already
"consecrated" Datessen in 1981-a year
before ~fgr. Thuc did! (See Fr. Clarence
Kelly, "The Nlental State of Archbishop
Time: Prut II," The Bu lie tin, February 1994,
., ,, ) pp .... -..:,.
What is important to note here is that the
same names keep cropping up in different
combinations: Crutivet a11d Enos; Crutivet a11d
Labmie; Kozik a11d Enos; Kozik a11d Labmie;
Fema11dez and Enos; Fernandez a11d Labmie;
Datessen and Enos; Enos and Datessen. In
shmt, Mgr. Time was not bumping into these
men by accident; he had become (wittingly or
not) a very convenient "Holy Orders"
dispenser for a network of Old Catholics.
It is unfathomable to tltink of a Catholic
bishop casting the pearls of episcopal
consecration to apostates, but here we see it
happening repeatedly. How can this be
explained? Efforts to excuse ltim have been
made, thougl1 not very convincingly. In 1988
Frs. Kelly, Jenkins, and Sanbomjomneyed to
Munich, Germany to interview Drs. Kmt
Hiller and Eberhru·d Heller, "lay witnesses"
of three Thuc "consecrations." Fr. Kelly
pointedly questioned Dr. Hiller about Mgr.
Thuc's involvement with Jean Lab01ie. \Vb.en
he asked, "if [Mgr. Thuc] was so solid in the
[F]aith, why would he consecrate an Old
Catholic?" Dr. Hiller replied that he was
"absolutely poor," hinting that money may
have been an incentive. Still pressing the
issue, Fr. Kelly posed a11other question: "But
if [Laborie] was an Old Catholic, how would
[NI gr. Time] think to continue the Catholic
Church through a11 Old Catholic?" Dr.
Hiller's answer suggests both that Mgr. Time
knew the sect was not Catholic and that he
believed Laborie would retm11 to the Church:
He thought that when he would be
ordained as a pliest or consecrated
he would be a C'atholic, a Roman
Catholic not an Old Catholic. He
10
knowed [sic] exactly that the Old
Catholic Church isn't the Roman
Catholic Church ....
This explanation is also put f mth by Dr.
Rama: "Again, [Mgr. Time] is accused of
ordaining in Old Catholic (1977). But he did
so under the impression that the individual
desired to be reconciled to the true Church."
("Can One Accept the Resolutions Made by
the Society of [St.] Pius V as Expressed in
Their August-October Bulletin of 1990?", p.
2. The doctor's count is short by o II e
"ordination'' and five "consecrations.")
Disputing tltis account is Fr. Barbru·a in
"Bunting Questions," where he states:
We emphasize Thuc never
concerned himself ·with
withdrawing those upon whom he
imposed hands from these sects. He
ordained priests or consecrated
bishops in their respective sects ... (p. 20. Emphasis added.)
The gravity of such acts is profound, even if
Mgr. Thuc did believe these men would
return to the Church (which, to my
knowledge, not one has ever done). The
Sacraments are never lawfully given to a nonCatholic on the assumption that he will
become a Catholic. If any priest worthy of the
name discovers an Old Catholic at the
communion rail, he will make it known that
one must become a Roman Catholic before
partaking of the Blessed Sacrament. How
much more c1itical is it for a bishop to apply
tltis p1inciple when it comes to Holy Orders,
as so many people can fall prey to the
mischief of these schismatics and their
successors.
It is absurd for a bishop to presmne he may
exercise papal prerogatives to bring the worst
apostates into the Church as her leaders.
Canon law (C. 985) stipulates that even a man
who before ltis conversion had belonged to a
non-Catholic sect in good faith is ineligible
for the p1iesthood, unless he is granted a
dispensation. Men like Laborie, however, in
no way fit this description: They were
Catholics, as Fr. Barbara noted, rll ho
perfidiously abandoned the Church to start
their own Old Catholic churches.
When someone who apostatized returns to
the C11urch, he is not greeted as a conqueiing
hero. Br. Thomas Merton, the famous
American Trappist, gives the sad account of
what he witnessed at Gethsemani Abbey back
in 1941:
The poor man, for some reason,
had not lived as a good priest. In
the end. his mistake had caught up
with him. He had come into
contact with some schismatics, in a
sect known as "the Old
Catholics", and these people
persuaded him to leave the C'hurch
and come over to them. And when
he did so they made him an
archbishop. I supposed he enjoyed
the dignity and the novelty of it
for a while; but the whole thing
was obviously silly. So he gave it
up and came back. And now here
he was in the monastery, serving
11.1ass every morning for a young
Trappist priest who scarcely had
the oils of his ordination dry on
his hands. (Cited, Anson, pp. 28-
29. Emphasis added.)
Since the Church's unchanging policy is to
defrock such men, for J\.1gr. Thuc to "elevate
them to the episcopacy" suggests shameful
disregard, as there are no plausible grounds
for him presume permission to relax this
perennial policy. Even if these men had been
"good faith" Old Catholics, able to secure
dispensations to the piiesthood-which they
were not-the Chmch still would need to
detennine if their orders were valid, a far from
routine task given the myriad liturgical and
doctiinal pennutations separating one Old
Catholic church from the next or even
dividing generations within the same church.
And mind you, this represents the best case
scenario-Mgr. Thuc being conned into
believing these men had (or might) become
Catholics. But even this neither excuses him
nor removes canonical censures, for a bishop
has an absolute moral obligation to heed
Saint Paul's admonition: "Impose not hands
lightly upon any man .... '' The consecration
of an Old Catholic by a Roman Catholic
bishop is, of course, never tolerated by the
Church, regardless the pretext (the postVatican II clisis, for example), for it is an
intrinsically evil act-the episcopal equivalent
of adultery.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2019, 12:39:50 PM »

https://frfenton.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/the-athan-1995-jun.pdf

Garden-variety attack on the Thuc-line consecrations.
Equally applicable to the CMRI, St. Gertrude the Great, Bishop McKenna O.P., etc.

Since surveys on this site indicate that a large percentage of people here are sedevacantists, then that argument against the Fraternite Notre Dame also fails unless you want to call Michael Wilson and many others here "schismatics, apostates, heretics" etc.
 

Online martin88nyc

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2019, 01:50:11 PM »

https://frfenton.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/the-athan-1995-jun.pdf

Garden-variety attack on the Thuc-line consecrations.
Equally applicable to the CMRI, St. Gertrude the Great, Bishop McKenna O.P., etc.

Since surveys on this site indicate that a large percentage of people here are sedevacantists, then that argument against the Fraternite Notre Dame also fails unless you want to call Michael Wilson and many others here "schismatics, apostates, heretics" etc.
I posted this just to show where Roger Kozik comes from and people he was associated with.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2019, 11:30:20 PM »
My concern is more with his supposed visions, though the Thuc-line stuff is a potential issue.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 

Online martin88nyc

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2019, 11:54:21 PM »
My concern is more with his supposed visions, though the Thuc-line stuff is a potential issue.
Exactly. And how could Our Lady approve of schismatic group; confuse the faithful even further.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2019, 11:06:03 AM »

 And how could Our Lady approve of schismatic group;

From the evidence presented so far, they are no more schismatic than any of the traditional Catholic groups attended by all the participants here on SD.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2019, 12:09:44 PM »

 And how could Our Lady approve of schismatic group;

From the evidence presented so far, they are no more schismatic than any of the traditional Catholic groups attended by all the participants here on SD.

SSPX, FSSP, ICRSS and diocesan trads are not schismatic.  They probably make up the vast majority of members of this forum.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 12:23:15 PM »

 And how could Our Lady approve of schismatic group;

From the evidence presented so far, they are no more schismatic than any of the traditional Catholic groups attended by all the participants here on SD.

SSPX, FSSP, ICRSS and diocesan trads are not schismatic.  They probably make up the vast majority of members of this forum.

SSPX are officially considered "schismatic." The others are not a "vast majority of members of this forum" according to recent polls taken here.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 12:46:47 PM »
Well I remember not long before Bishop Morlino of the Diocese of Madison died he apologized for calling the SSPX schismatic.  It seems only the ill informed call the SSPX schismatic.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 
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Offline Stefano

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2019, 01:50:09 PM »
Well I remember not long before Bishop Morlino of the Diocese of Madison died he apologized for calling the SSPX schismatic.  It seems only the ill informed call the SSPX schismatic.

No one really calls the SSPX schismatic anymore outside of Michael Vorris. Quite common to hear the "valid but not licit" conversation with FSSP, ICRSS and Diocesan priests.
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Fraternite Notre Dame
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2019, 08:28:19 PM »
If the SSPX were schismatic, the Vatican would have no say on any of their Sacraments. Since the Conciliar Church wants to have its cake and eat it too, those of us who aren’t low IQ reactionaries can plainly see the SSPX is not and was never in schism.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 
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