Author Topic: Is this Sedevacantism  (Read 218 times)

Offline Augustinian21

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Is this Sedevacantism
« on: January 01, 2019, 05:10:19 PM »
Is the view that the recent Popes govern validly but illicitly Sedevacantist? My own view is that Francis is a valid Pope, but governs illicitly due to his heresy. He is a heretic awaiting  deposition. Does this make me a Sedevacantist?
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Is this Sedevacantism
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2019, 07:43:40 PM »
This is not sedevacantism. Sounds more like sedeplenism.
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Is this Sedevacantism
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2019, 09:34:16 PM »
Pretty much the R&R position.
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Offline Philip G.

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Re: Is this Sedevacantism
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2019, 10:46:11 PM »
Is the view that the recent Popes govern validly but illicitly Sedevacantist? My own view is that Francis is a valid Pope, but governs illicitly due to his heresy. He is a heretic awaiting  deposition. Does this make me a Sedevacantist?

Generally speaking, valid but illicit is not associated with sedevacantism.  However, deposition is another matter.  If that is an emphasis for you, you could run into problems.  Una cum current pope(local bishops is another matter IMO) is the defining line.  When you or your priest has dropped the una cum, you have passed into the domain of sedevacantism.  And, don't be fooled, the devil can be patient.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 10:49:47 PM by Philip G. »
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Is this Sedevacantism
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2019, 11:41:40 PM »
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Michel-Louis Guérard des Lauriers, O.P. (25 October 1898 – 27 February 1988) was a Dominican theologian and, in later life, a traditionalist Catholic bishop.

Quote
He further developed his beliefs on the current state of the papacy, relying on Cardinal Cajetan and St. Robert Bellarmine, arguing that Pope Paul VI, as a result of his heresy, was not a true pope, being only pope materially (papa materialiter) and not formally, known as the "Cassiciacum thesis".

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According to Lauriers’ thesis, Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II and (implicitly) Benedict XVI and Francis were or are defective popes in that, due to their espousal of the "modernist heresy", their consent to become pope was faulty or defective, so that they became legally designated to be pope, yet deprived of attaining full succession to the Authority of Peter.

Bishop Guerard des Lauriers’ thesis holds that the Vatican II popes succeed as legal designees to the papacy and continue the line of St. Peter materially. This means that the Vatican II Novus Ordo popes are legitimate designees to be true popes but not formally and thereby lack jurisdictional authority because of the obstacle that they posit to the reception of the authority.

This is so because the Novus Ordo religion has never been authoritatively severed from the Catholic Church. It ought to be severed, but by law is not severed, just as a murderer ought to be prosecuted and condemned but possibly at times is not. Therefore, while those Novus Ordo members of the hierarchy who are in fact manifestly guilty of the sin of heresy and detached from the Mystical Body, nonetheless, remain free of a conviction of the crime of heresy owing to the absence of authoritative legal action, and thus they retain their legal memberships, designations and their purely legal posts.[4] They are not the authority, they are not true popes or true bishops, but are legally in the position to become true popes and bishops, if they should remove the obstacle to the reception of the authority of the office.

Because the power of designation to office pertains to the purely legal and material side of authority, the Novus Ordo popes possess the power to legitimately designate to positions of power, until such time as this power is legally removed from them.

As a result, there is a material hierarchy in place, i.e., someone legally nominated to be a pope, and others legally nominated to be bishops, and others legally nominated to be electors of popes, but none of these has any jurisdiction, and obedience is owed to none of them.

Because they lack the authority, which is the form which makes them to be what they are, Bergoglio is a false pope and the bishops are false bishops. The cardinals are true electors, to the extent that they are legally nominated to be designators of the pope. But their role pertains to the material order of authority, the order of designation only."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel-Louis_Gu%C3%A9rard_des_Lauriers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedeprivationism


Personally, I think des Laurier's "cassiacum thesis" is of merely academic interest, and is something to be looked into perhaps once we've passed through to the other side of the crisis. The fact is that for all intents and purposes "they" (meaning Pope Paul VI and his successors, and all bishops in communion) are the de facto Catholic hierarchy, and it's much safer to maintain Catholic obedience to them (in all things except heresy & sin, of course) and assume that Almighty God will supply any defect that is in them, than to presume to depose the entire apostolic hierarchy and assume that authority for oneself. I do not agree with des Laurier's seeking of episcopal orders later in life for this reason, although we have to understand that he was working during the most desperate period of the crisis when the confusion was at its highest, so I make no judgement on the man himself.
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