Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.

[Xavier]

In another thread, we saw some of the ways in which our friends who are Jews could be helped to come to Christ and the Church. Here, let's examine what are some of the best ways to present the Gospel of Christ to Muslims.

As a reminder, Muslims profess to believe (Islamism imho is a corrupted form of Arianism) (1) that there is one God, and in Abraham, Moses and the Prophets (2) that Jesus was a great Prophet and born of the Virgin Mary (3) that Mother Mary was a very holy Woman (some will even say sinless). But on the other reject that (1) that Jesus was God. And reject faith in (2) the Holy Trinity (3) in the crucifixion of Christ, and in Holy Baptism and the Sacraments etc. Instead their Muhammed taught them Christ was a holy Man but only a man and not divine.

St. John Damascene and St. Thomas Aquinas have written material directed at and helpful for Muslims enquiring into Christianity. Sometimes they focus on (1) Christ's clearly having worked public miracles, compared to the first Muslims themselves admitting Mohammed did not do so (2) Christ's having fulfilled (and pointed to) passages where Moses and all the Prophets spoke of Him, compared to Mohammeds failure to do the same; (3) beside Christ's clear testimony to Himself as the divine Son of God, which Islam denies; finally (4) the crucifixion as hiatorical fact, witnessed by St. John and Mother Mary etc

Thoughts? Any other ideas/suggestions/tips you've found useful.

But when we ask: ‘And who is there to testify that God gave him the book? And which of the prophets foretold that such a prophet would rise up?’—they are at a loss. And we remark that Moses received the Law on Mount Sinai, with God appearing in the sight of all the people in cloud, and fire, and darkness, and storm. And we say that all the Prophets from Moses on down foretold the coming of Christ and how Christ God (and incarnate Son of God) was to come and to be crucified and die and rise again, and how He was to be the judge of the living and dead. Then, when we say: ‘How is it that this prophet of yours did not come in the same way, with others bearing witness to him? And how is it that God did not in your presence present this man with the book to which you refer, even as He gave the Law to Moses, with the people looking on and the mountain smoking, so that you, too, might have certainty?’ ...

“When we ask again: ‘How is it that when he enjoined us in this book of yours not to do anything or receive anything without witnesses, you did not ask him: “First do you show us by witnesses that you are a prophet and that you have come from God, and show us just what Scriptures there are that testify about you”’—they are ashamed and remain silent.”

And again we say to them: ‘As long as you say that Christ is the Word of God and Spirit, why do you accuse us of being Hetaeriasts? For the word, and the spirit, is inseparable from that in which it naturally has existence. Therefore, if the Word of God is in God, then it is obvious that He is God. If, however, He is outside of God, then, according to you, God is without word and without spirit ...

On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth.

On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms.

[TheReturnofLive]

Don't forget John Bosco.

[Michael Wilson]

How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.
'Warning, this is very strong' https://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

I needed to edit and correct this article because I’ve learned some new details. Initially, I believed what many Muslims asserted: Muhammad sexually consummated his marriage to the nine year old Aisha following her first menstruation. HOWEVER, after reading brother Sam Shamoun’s articles (1, 2), I realized that the Quran, the Hadith, and Muslim scholar’s writings state that a Muslim husband can engage in sex with a child-bride before she has her first menses. Further, Muhammad actually did just this – he had intercourse with Aisha prior to her first menses!
1) INTRODUCTION

Picture this historical setting: A 49 year old man asks his best friend if he could have his permission to marry his 6 year old daughter. His friend agrees. The man then visits his best friend’s house and speaks with the 6 year old daughter. Her parents watch as the he proposes marriage to the child. He is serious; he wants to marry the little girl and is asking for her consent. The little child says nothing; she only stares at him in silence.

The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. This occurred prior to Aisha’s first menses and by Islam’s legal definition Aisha was still considered a child. Islam teaches that a child enters adulthood at the beginning of puberty. (This is scientifically inaccurate, the onset of puberty does not equal adulthood – see Appendix 3).

The bottom line is Muhammad, the creator of Islam, revered by his followers, had sex with a child! Worse, Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent and Islamic law allows female children to be married off and engaged in sex provided they are able to handle a man’s penis (Quran 65:4). As will be shown, this leads to physical, and psychological, damage to the child.
Borrowing from Sam’s work (*) I quote three Islamic scholars commentary related to 65:4 and the subject of sex with prepubescent children:

Ibn Kathir writes regarding 65:4

    <divorce them at their `Iddah>, "The `Iddah is made up of cleanliness and the menstrual period." So he divorces her while it is clear that she is pregnant, or he does not due to having sex, or since he does not know if she is pregnant or not. This is why the scholars said that there are two types of divorce, one that conforms to the Sunnah and another innovated. The divorce that conforms to the Sunnah is one where the husband pronounces one divorce to his wife when she is not having her menses and without having had sexual intercourse with her after the menses ended. One could divorce his wife when it is clear that she is pregnant. As for the innovated divorce, it occurs when one divorces his wife when she is having her menses, or after the menses ends, has sexual intercourse with her and then divorces her, even though he does not know if she became pregnant or not. There is a third type of divorce, which is neither a Sunnah nor an innovation where one divorces A YOUNG WIFE WHO HAS NOT BEGUN TO HAVE MENSES, the wife who is beyond the age of having menses, and divorcing one's wife before the marriage was consummated. (Source; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Al-Tabari said regarding 65:4

    The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

    Tafseer al-Tabari, 14/142 (Source: Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
    (Question #12708: Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?)

Regarding sex with prepubescent children, Abu-Ala’ Maududi states:

    "Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible." (Maududi, volume 5, p. 620, note 13, emphasis added)

It is clear: Muslim men can engage in sex with prepubescent children!
This increases the weight and scope of my argument and places Muhammad and Islam in a far darker, more disreputable, light. Many Muslims don’t know this and by their own standards Muhammad did the wrong thing in having sex with a child. Muslims have to answer for their continued support for Muhammad because he transgresses their standards. When children are allowed to be used for sex then that is sexual exploitation; so why do they support the creator and establishment of a system that entrenches the abuse and sexual exploitation of children?

I am not trying to use cheap polemics. Surely you realize that for children there are painful ramifications behind Muhammad’s action. They need to be discussed in detail and in context. It might be offensive to some but it needs to be discussed...

[Vetus Ordo]

How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

[TheReturnofLive]

Why should they bother converting? They worship the same Merciful God who will Judge Mankind on the Last Day, according to Vatican II and Saint Pope Paul VI, Saint Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict.

It's a sin against Ecumenism to do this, Xavier, and you know better, as His Holiness Pope Francis says. Submit to the Vicar of Christ. Pope Benedict XVI, another Vicar of Christ, the Traditional Pope himself, who wonderfully with great joy allowed the Tridentine Mass, says the Theology of the Return was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.

[Acolyte]

The internet must certainly be having an impact. Women are oppressed in Moslem countries and they can now see a picture of Christian culture they had been sheltered from in the past.

https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/iranians-disillusioned-with-islam-are-fleeing-country-converting-to-christianity.html

[Xavier]

It's a sin against Ecumenism to do this, Xavier

Nice one!

From failing to commit these "sins against Ecumenism", deliver us, O Lord.

That we may always "sin against Ecumenism", we beseech Thee, O Lord.
 

Btw, Ecumenism is only supposed to be among baptized Christians who believe in (and have been baptized into) the Trinity according to Unitatis Redeintegratio. In pre Vatican II documents like a Holy Office directive under Pope Pius XII, it is said even of them, "It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained" which is clear and perfect.

"The missionaries of the 16th century were convinced that the unbaptized person is lost forever. After the [Second Vatican] Council, this conviction was definitely abandoned. The result was a two-sided, deep crisis. Without this attentiveness to the salvation, the Faith loses its foundation. https://catholicism.org/pope-emeritus-speaks-on-necessity-of-baptism-and-no-salvation-outside-the-church.html

"Pope Benedict asks the piercing question that arose after this palpable change of attitude of the Church: “Why should you try to convince the people to accept the Christian faith when they can be saved even without it?” As to the other consequences of this new attitude in the Church, the Catholics themselves, in Benedict’s eyes, are less attached to their Faith: If there are those who can save their souls with other means, “why should the the Christian be bound to the necessity of the Christian Faith and its morality?” asked the pope. And he concludes: “But if Faith and Salvation are not any more interdependent, even Faith becomes less motivating.”

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI
given July 13, 1988, in Santiago, Chile

While people still argue over what Vatican II and the CCC say and do not say about EENS, it is clear traditionally people are not saved without faith in Christ, knowledge and love of Him as true God, contrition for one's sins, especially if one rejected the Truth, and desire for Baptism.

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

[Michael Wilson]

How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

Old news, but important, even the Moslesms recognize that having sex with a pre-pubescent girl is a no-no.

[Vetus Ordo]

How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia). This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

Old news, but important, even the Moslesms recognize that having sex with a pre-pubescent girl is a no-no.

Aisha is not recorded as being prepubescent when Muhammad consummated their marriage. She experienced a precocious puberty at 9 years of age.

[Michael Wilson]

Not according to the site that I linked to, which sites various Muslism documents. Plus also citing Muslim law, which allows marriage and divorce with pre-pubescent women.

here is part of what I already posted above:
''There is a third type of divorce, which is neither a Sunnah nor an innovation where one divorces A YOUNG WIFE WHO HAS NOT BEGUN TO HAVE MENSES, the wife who is beyond the age of having menses, and divorcing one's wife before the marriage was consummated. (Source; bold and capital emphasis ours)

Al-Tabari said regarding 65:4

    The interpretation of the verse "And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their 'Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise". He said: The same applies to the 'idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them."

[Vetus Ordo]

Not according to the site that I linked to, which sites various Muslism documents.

The site that you linked to is "Answering Islam", an apologetic platform of Evangelical Christians. Useful in some respects but not exactly an unbiased scholarly resource on Islam.

Islamic Law, the Shariah, is a vast body of jurisprudence based on the Qur'an, the Hadiths and the Sunnah of Muhammad. Compiled, cross-referenced, matured, etc., over many centuries of communal experience and legal disputes. So, if you're in doubt, you can be sure that if something is prescribed in the Shariah, then it is in accordance with the sources. Simply quoting verses from the Qur'an or some Hadiths, etc., won't do much to understand an issue.

As far as Islamic sexual jurisprudence is concerned, the girl may not live with the husband until she is fit to engage in sexual intercourse. This threshold is puberty, or sexually maturity properly speaking.

However, to avoid further confusion, Islamic legal terminology defines puberty (bulugh) for women as the moment she has her first period, regardless of whether she is sexually mature or not. The period itself, however, is not a condition for marriage; sexual maturity is the decisive factor.

[Vetus Ordo]

If you're interested in the subject, Michael, this might be useful.

In his book Islam: Its History, Teaching, and Practices, Prof. Solomon Alexander Nigosian, an Armenian Protestant born in Egypt, awarded with a doctorate degree in Ancient Near East History and Professor of Religion and Near Eastern Studies at McMaster University in Ontario (check his credentials here), states the following:

"In Islam, the basic unit of society is the family. Hence, neither celibacy nor monasticism are encouraged in Islam as a way of life except under unusual or extenuating circumstances. Chastity outside marriage is regarded as a prime virtue, and the Quran recommends early marriage as a way to ensure abstinence from unlawful sexual activity. Those who reach marriageable age without finding a suitable mate are exhorted to observe complete abstinence from sexual activity until the right opportunity presents itself (Quran 24:34). Extramarital relations are altogether forbidden (Quran 17:33). It was not uncommon at one time for children to be married even before they reached puberty, though they were not permitted to cohabit until they were at least sexually mature."

The famous A Dictionary of Islam: Being a Cyclopaedia of the Doctrines, Rites, Ceremonies, and Customs, Together with the Technical and Theological Terms, of the Muhammadan Religion by Thomas Patrick Hughes, a British Anglican missionary who served under the auspices of the Church Mission Society in Peshawar, British India, states the following on the issue of marriage:

It is, therefore, important to consider what the requisite conditions are to vest in an individual the capacity to enter into a valid contract. As a general rule, it may be remarked, that under the Islamic law, the capacity to contract a valid marriage rests on the same basis as the capacity to enter into any other contract. ‘Among the conditions which are requisite for validity of a contract of marriage (says the fatawa-i-Alamgiri, p 377), are understanding, puberty, and freedom, in the contracting parties, with this difference, that whilst the first requisite is essential necessary for the validity of the marriage, as a marriage cannot be contracted by a majnun (non compos mentis), or a boy without understanding, the other two conditions are required only to give operation to the contract, as the marriage contracted by a (minor) boy (possessed) of understanding is dependent for its operation on the consent of his guardian.’ Puberty and discretion constitute, accordingly, the essential conditions of the capacity to enter into a valid contract of marriage. A person who is an infant in the eye of law is disqualified from entering into any legal transactions (tassaru fat-i-Shariyeh-tasarrufat-i-Shar’iah), and is consequently incompetent to contract a marriage. Like the English Common law, however, the Muhammdan law males distinction between a contract made by a minor possessed of discretion or understanding. A marriage contracted by a minor who has not arrived at the age of discretion, or who does not possesses understanding, or who cannot comprehend the consequences of the act, is a mere nullity.

[TheReturnofLive]

Btw, Ecumenism is only supposed to be among baptized Christians who believe in (and have been baptized into) the Trinity according to Unitatis Redeintegratio. In pre Vatican II documents like a Holy Office directive under Pope Pius XII, it is said even of them, "It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained" which is clear and perfect.

What about Nostra Aetate?

"The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting."
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."


It's clear, especially in the actions of Pope Benedict and Pope Francis, that Ecumenical Dialogue with Muslims and a mutual respect for Muslims is something that's encouraged.

Pope Benedict XVI says that one cannot Proselytize Jews, that it's forbidden - only dialogue.

https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2018/11/28/retired-pope-corrects-false-insinuation-by-german-theologian/

According to Vatican II and all the subsequent Popes, Islam worships the God of Abraham and is a part of the religious patrimony of the People of the Book! If we aren't allowed to convert Jews, why should we convert Muslims?

Just look at how the Popes have praised Islam! Including several Saints of the Church!

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

May God forgive you one day for ridiculing what Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II have worked for!

[Davis Blank - EG]

Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

[TheReturnofLive]

Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.