Author Topic: Evangelism aimed at helping our Muslim friends come to Christ and the Church.  (Read 1513 times)

Offline Gardener

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Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.
 
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.

That's all fine but you're completely derailing the thread.
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Offline Kreuzritter

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How about mentioning the fact that Mohamed married and consumated a marriage with a nine year old girl.

Old news. This was not unusual at the time.

Consummation, however, only occurred after puberty, as Islamic law teaches. The age where the girl reached puberty varies according to time and place. Aisha's puberty was exceptionally precocious.

According to apocryphal traditions that gained popularity throughout the ages, the Blessed Virgin is thought to have married St. Joseph when she was just between 12 or 14 years old while he was 90 years old (Catholic Encyclopedia).

I never thought I'd get to hear that piece of moral relativism, and pedo-relativism no less, the by-rote response of every Muslim apologist, over here.

Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

Quote
This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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V.O.
Thank you for the posted information; what you posted just confirms what the authors of the site I referenced stated: Mohamed was living with the girl when she was 9 years old and he then had sex with her; here is more evidence (which is pretty conclusive), that she had not yet reached puberty:
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4) EVIDENCE THAT MUHAMMAD HAD SEX WITH AISHA PRIOR TO HER FIRST MENSES

We’ve seen that Islamic doctrine allows for prepubescent children to be engaged in intercourse, and that Aisha was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her for the first time. Now we’ll look at the evidence and see that Aisha was prepubescent when Muhammad had sex with her.

The hadith state that Aisha was taken to Muhammad’s house, as his bride, when she was 9 and she took her dolls with her as play toys. I’ll borrow some excerpts from Sam’s article here:

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3311)

'A'isha reported that she used to PLAY WITH DOLLS in the presence of Allah's Messenger and when her playmates came to her they left (the house) because they felt shy of Allah's Messenger whereas Allah's Messenger sent them to her. (Sahih Muslim, Book 031, Number 5981)

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 4914)


A Muslim scholar says that it is okay for Aisha (and other children) to play with dolls because they are not considered adults:

Al-Khattaabee said: From this Hadeeth it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to 'Aa'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) is because SHE HAD NOT, AT THAT TIME, REACHED THE AGE OF PUBERTY. (Source)

 

Examining the evidence from the previous sections we see

Islam allows sex with prepubescent children who are married
Aisha was playing with dolls after she consummated her marriage with Muhammad
Under Islam’s rules, female children were allowed to play with dolls because they had not yet entered puberty, i.e. had their first menses and became adults.
 

Therefore, the only conclusion that can be made is that Muhammad was having sex with a Aisha while still was a child! The Quran allows this, Muhammad did this, Aisha stated this, and the scholars affirm this. Now Islam’s children have to deal with this.

1. Aisha was playing with dolls after living together with Muhammad.
2. Aisha had already consummated the marriage.
3. She was only allowed to play with dolls according to Moslem law, because she had not reached puberty yet.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

The onset of puberty in girls usually occurs between 10 and 14 years of age.

However, cases of precocious puberty (and delayed puberty) do occur: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview.

As for Aisha's case, we can only go as far as the sources go. Was she mature enough? Personally, I suspect not but the sources, and the Islamic legislation drafted therefrom, say otherwise. There is a possibility that her sexual maturity was really precocious. If we are to deal fairly with Muslims, and proper Evangelism depends on treating the opponent's beliefs fairly, that's as far as I'd go.

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Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.

In the Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society we read the following on the topic of "Age of Consent":

"The American colonies followed the English tradition but the law could at best be called a guide. For example in Virginia in 1689, Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce, and was released from the covenant she had made because the marriage had not been consummated. Interestingly, historian Holly Brewer, who discovered the case, speculated that if William had raped Mary, she probably would not have been given the divorce. The only reliable data on age at marriage in England in the early modern period comes from Inquisitions Post Mortem which involved only those who died and left property. It appears that the more complete the records, the more likely it is to discover young marriages. Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at age younger than seven, in spite of what Gratian had said, and there are recorded marriages of two and three year olds. The seventeenth-century lawyer Henry Swinburne distinguished between the marriages of those under seven and those between seven and puberty. He wrote that those under seven who had said their vows had to ratify it afterwards by giving kisses and embraces, by lying together, by exchanging gifts or tokens, or by calling each other husband or wife. A contemporary, Philip Stubbes, wrote that in sixteenth-century East Anglia, infants still in swaddling clothes were married. The most influential legal text of the seventeenth century in England, that of Sir Edward Coke, made it clear that the marriage of girls under twelve was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was nine even though her husband be only four years old."

As far as Semitic societies, such as that of Muhammad's, marriages between old men and young girls were fairly common.
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Offline Josephine87

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It is interesting to see Protestant Christians engage in practices similar to Moslems. The late Zippy of Zippy Catholic blog frequently commented about how they both had a similar view of Scripture. Similar heresies appear to lead to similar sins (child rape).
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Offline TheReturnofLive

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Your straw man ultra-ultra-ultramontanism is tiring.  But more importantly it is bad for you.

It's not bad for me, but I want to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church has - since Vatican II - lost it's sense of Catholicity, unless one is a Sedevacantist.

It is bad for you if you think that it's the Catholic understanding of the Papacy, as that directly informs your perfectionism which has, indirectly, contributed to your schism.

As I've said, is the Church not perfect in terms of it's Canonizations, the Catechisms, and Ecumenical Councils? Is not the Church, as God says, "my dove, my spotless one," and does not Pope Hormasdias say the Church remains undefiled unto the end?

The Church has fully endorsed the life of Pope Paul VI as something admirable that can lead you to Heaven.

That's all fine but you're completely derailing the thread.

Mea Culpa, Kyrie Eleison.

I'm sorry for doing so.
 
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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1. Aisha was playing with dolls after living together with Muhammad.
2. Aisha had already consummated the marriage.
3. She was only allowed to play with dolls according to Moslem law, because she had not reached puberty yet.

Not all dolls are forbidden in Islam.

Here is the direct rebuttal to the article you posted, if you're interested in having a broader view of the subject:

https://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_sam_shamoun_s_arguments_regarding_the_prophet_s_marriage_to_aisha
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Consummation occured when she was nine, and in no ime or place in history has a nine-year-old girl been capable of understanding and consenting to marriage, ready for sexual intercourse with a grown man, or physically resembling anything but a child to whom only a paediophile would be sexually attracted, puberty or not. And defended by an apocryphal reference to the the Virgin Mary, no less! Talk abotu an offense to pious ears.

The onset of puberty in girls usually occurs between 10 and 14 years of age.

However, cases of precocious puberty (and delayed puberty) do occur: https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/924002-overview.

As for Aisha's case, we can only go as far as the sources go. Was she mature enough? Personally, I suspect not but the sources, and the Islamic legislation drafted therefrom, say otherwise. There is a possibility that her sexual maturity was really precocious. If we are to deal fairly with Muslims, and proper Evangelism depends on treating the opponent's beliefs fairly, that's as far as I'd go.

More of the same from you. All irrelevant. Having sex with a nine-year-old girl, who is absolutely incapable of understanding and consenting to marriage, is evil and makes you a paedophile, regardless of a "precocious" puberty.

Quote
Quote
Between a nine-year-old girl and an old man? You're smoking some mightily strong cow dung there.

In the Encyclopedia of Children and Childhood in History and Society we read the following on the topic of "Age of Consent":

"The American colonies followed the English tradition but the law could at best be called a guide. For example in Virginia in 1689, Mary Hathaway was only nine when she was married to William Williams. We know of her case only because two years later she sued for divorce, and was released from the covenant she had made because the marriage had not been consummated. Interestingly, historian Holly Brewer, who discovered the case, speculated that if William had raped Mary, she probably would not have been given the divorce. The only reliable data on age at marriage in England in the early modern period comes from Inquisitions Post Mortem which involved only those who died and left property. It appears that the more complete the records, the more likely it is to discover young marriages. Judges honored marriages based on mutual consent at age younger than seven, in spite of what Gratian had said, and there are recorded marriages of two and three year olds. The seventeenth-century lawyer Henry Swinburne distinguished between the marriages of those under seven and those between seven and puberty. He wrote that those under seven who had said their vows had to ratify it afterwards by giving kisses and embraces, by lying together, by exchanging gifts or tokens, or by calling each other husband or wife. A contemporary, Philip Stubbes, wrote that in sixteenth-century East Anglia, infants still in swaddling clothes were married. The most influential legal text of the seventeenth century in England, that of Sir Edward Coke, made it clear that the marriage of girls under twelve was normal, and the age at which a girl who was a wife was eligible for a dower from her husband's estate was nine even though her husband be only four years old."
[/quote]

Nice straw man. I'm not interested in the doings of an extremist Protestant cult. You claimed that

Quote
This sort of age discrepancy in marriage did not become taboo until much later on in the West.

and that's demonstrably false. Ancient Roman law set the age of consent at 12, with parental permission, and Canon law followed Roman law. That is why English law set the age of consent at 12 in the 12th century. You're spinning a false narrative of history that is incidentally the same one used by paedo-apologists to "justify" their behaviour, namely that the prohibition upon it is merely a modern Western social convention.

And if you think the Catholic Church acknowledged as valid marriages between little children and adults, you're smoking something.
 

Offline Xavier

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So, (1) Mohammed's actions (being 50+ while seducing a poor girl of 9) disqualify him from being a Prophet, even apart from that (2) Mohammed's behavior (polygamy, sex slavery, concubinage etc) especially after Christ by His Church had so highly elevated matrimony back to its original dignity, by teaching us the necessity of fidelity and exclusive love in marriage, disqualifies Mohammed from being a Prophet (3) His evil teachings justifying this and promising a false carnal paradise further disqualify him, and a thousand such reasons could be cited from his life. Then, (4) the historical fact of the crucifixion, almost universally admitted and witnessed by Mary and St. John, disqualifies him. (5) The fact that Christ completed revelation and established the new and eternal covenant disqualifies Mohammed or any such further prophet with new public revelation (6) the promise of Christ to His Church, as well as the promise of the Spirit, further proves there is no new revelation after Christ until the second coming. And numerous such reasons can be urged.

The challenge is to present this to our Muslim friends in such a way as will make them open to hearing the eternal Truth of the Gospel.
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Offline Gardener

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KR, I suspect Vetus is merely laying out the case from the Islamic perspective, not defending it.

He can confirm or deny.
 

Offline Xavier

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St. John Bosco interview on Islamism, this is how Catholic Bishops and Priests should teach their flock and safeguard them from errors. http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/islam/bosco.htm

In other interesting news in this connection, we see more and more conservatives realize some of the quaint and rather naive statements in Nostra Aetate are only random rapid reflections and not by any means dogma or doctrine, "Which raises an oft-asked question (though, apparently, not oft-asked in Orlando): was Nostra Aetate meant to be a teaching document or a pastoral document? Was it meant to deal with matters of faith and morals in a definitive way? Or was it mainly pastoral in intent? Were the Council fathers intending to teach Catholics about the nature of Islam? Or was Nostra Aetate primarily meant as a gesture of outreach to non-Christians?

Several prominent bishops have suggested the latter. Vatican Cardinal Walter Brandmüller has stated that Nostra Aetate does “not have a binding doctrinal content.” And Archbishop Guido Pozzo, the Secretary of the Pontifical Council Ecclesia Dei, told a German newspaper “Nostra Aetate does not have any dogmatic authority, and thus one cannot demand from anyone to recognize this declaration as being dogmatic.” The Catholic educators in Orlando and elsewhere should take notice." https://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/islam-view-disney-country

Finally, St. John Bosco notes, in his time, Mohammedanism was prevalent in Asia and much of Africa, as was the case then. The religious demographics of Africa, as many observers of global Christianity have noted (most recently a Gordon Theological seminary study), are rapidly changing. And it is not impossible that Islam will largely disappear from Africa in another 15 to 30 years at current rates. May God grant it! Some Islamist sites mention and bemoan this. https://www.virtueonline.org/6-million-muslims-leave-islam-every-year

As Acolyte said, among other things, the internet changes matters somewhat, with Islamism and its errors and absurdities openly exposed for all to see. Thus, happily, very many Muslims, seeing the clear contrast between Jesus Christ and Mr. Mohammed, are leaving Islam behind and becoming Christians, even Catholic Christians.

Catholic prophesies suggest Islamism will have a prominent role to play in WW3. More urgent than ever is the necessity to evangelize and baptize, and carry out and quickly complete the Great Commission given by Jesus Christ Our Lord in the New Testament. "And this Gospel of the Kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come." (Mat 24:14)

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St. John Bosco on Mohammedanism
 
Father: Before talking to you about the religions separated at a certain point from the Roman Catholic Church, I want to draw your attention to the religions that do not have the characteristics of the divinity in them and which we call false religions. They range from Judaism to Idolatry, to Mohammedanism to the Christian sects professed by the Schismatic Greeks, Valdese, Anglicans and Protestants.

Regarding  Idolatry, I think there is no need to discuss this with you, since nowadays it does not exist, with the exception of  very few countries where the light of the Gospel has  still not penetrated.

Regarding Judaism, I think I have already spoken sufficiently in the first part of these conversations.
 
If you like, I’ll now tell you about the others, starting with Mohammedanism.
 
Son: Yes, yes, first of all, tell us what Mohammedanism means?

F. Mohammedanism is a collection of maxims extracted from various religions, which, if practiced, bring about the destruction of every moral principle.
 
S. In which countries is this Mohammedanism professed?
 

F. It is professed in a large part of Asia as well as part of  Africa.

S. Who started Mohammedanism?
 

F. Mohammedanism was started by Mohamed.
 
S. Oh! We’d really like to hear about this Mohamed. Tell us everything you know about him.

F. It would take too long to tell you all the stories about this famous impostor. But I’ll tell you who he was and how he came to establish his Religion.

In the year 570, Mohamed was born into a poor family, of a Jewish mother and gentile father, in Mecca an Arabian city not far from the Red Sea. In search of glory and desirous of bettering his conditions, he wandered around several countries and managed in Damascus to become the agent of a merchant’s widow who afterwards married him. He was cunning enough to take advantage of his infirmities as well as her ignorance, to establish a religion.  Suffering from epilepsy, male caduco, he claimed his frequent falls were ecstasies wherein he had conversations with the Angel Gabriel.

S. What an imposter to deceive people like that! Did he also try to work miracles to support his predication?

F. Mohamed couldn’t work any miracles to support his religion, as he was not sent by God.  God is the sole author of miracles.  However, as he claimed himself  greater than Jesus Christ, he was asked to work miracles in the same way [as Jesus]. He arrogantly replied that the miracles had [already] been worked by Jesus Christ and that he [himself] had been called by God to reestablish the religion by force.

With all of this he claimed to have worked one miracle. He said he had been able to restore a piece of the moon after it had fallen onto his sleeve; to commemorate this ridiculous miracle, the Muslims made the half-moon their emblem.

You laugh, beloved sons, and you are right to do so, since a man of that sort [simply] had to be deemed a charlatan, not the predicator of a new religion.  For this reason, his fellow-citizens wanted to imprison him and put him to death since his reputation as an imposter and disturber of the peace was widely  known.  But he managed to escape and retreated to the city of Medina along with some libertines who helped him and made him the ruler of that city. [1]   

S. What exactly does the Mohammedan  religion consist of?

F. Mohamed’s religion consists of a monstrous mixture of Judaism, Paganism and Christianity. The book of Mohamed’s laws is called the Qur’an i.e. the book par excellence. This religion is also called Turkish (Ottoman) since it is widely diffused in Turkey;  Muslim [Musulmana] derives from Mosul, the name that the Mohammedans give to their prayer director; Islamism, from the name of some of its reformers; at any rate, it is still the same religion Mohamed established.
 
S. Why did Mohamed put together this mixture of  various religions?

F. Since the peoples of Arabia were in part Jews, Christians and Pagans, he consequently selected a part of the religion they professed in order to induce them to follow him, choosing in particular, those points that would favor sensual pleasures the most.

S. Mohamed must have been an erudite man?

F. Absolutely not, he couldn’t even write; and in composing his Qur’an he was assisted by a Jew and an apostate monk. When discussing things contained in Holy Scripture he confused the facts; for example, he attributes to Mary, Moses’ sister, many facts that regard Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, in addition to many, many other frightful errors.

S. This seems hard to believe: if Mohamed was ignorant and he didn’t work any miracles how could he have propagated his religion?

F. Mohamed propagated his religion, not through miracles or persuasive words, but by military  force.  In a short time, this  religion which favoured every sort of licentiousness, allowed Mohamed to become the leader of a troop of brigands. Along with them he raided the countries of the East and conquered the people, not by indicating the Truth, not by miracles or prophecy but with one aim only: to raise his sword over the heads of the conquered shouting: believe or die!

S.  What a villain! This cannot be the way to convert people! Without doubt, Mohamed being such an ignoramus must have planted many seeds of error in the Qur’an?

F. We could say the Koran is a series of errors, the most enormous ones being against morality and the worship of the true God.  For example, it excuses from sin those who deny God out of fear of death;  it permits revenge; it guarantees its followers a Paradise filled only of earthly pleasures.  In short, this false prophet’s doctrine permits things so obscene, that the Christian soul is horrified just naming them.
 
S. What is the difference between the Catholic Church and the Mohammedan one?

F. The difference is very great. Mohamed established his religion with violence and arms; Jesus Christ established His Church with words of peace using His poor disciples. Mohamed incited the passions; Jesus Christ commanded the denial of self.  Mohamed worked no miracles; Jesus Christ worked uncountable miracles in broad daylight and in the presence of countless  multitudes.  Mohamed’s doctrines are ridiculous, immoral and corrupting; Jesus Christ’s are august, sublime and pure. In Mohamed not even one prophecy was fulfilled; in Jesus Christ all were.
 
To sum up, the Christian Religion, in a certain way, renders man happy in this world so as to raise him up to the enjoyment of heaven; Mohamed degrades and dishonours human nature and by placing all happiness in sensual pleasures, reduces man to the level of filthy animals.
 
[1] Mohamed’s escape  was called Egira, which means “escape” from which the Muslim era begins precisely and corresponds to the year of Christ, 622.
Taken from: On Islam  from “IL CATTOLICO, ISTRUITO NELLA SUA RELIGIONE, TRATTENIMENTI ( Torino 1853). [The Catholic educated in his religion. Conversations  with the Father of a Family and  his beloved sons, in relation to the needs of the present day.  Summarized by Giovanni Bosco, priest. (Turin, 1853)].
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 11:43:35 AM by Xavier »
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