Author Topic: Questions for John Lamb  (Read 1475 times)

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2018, 12:35:20 PM »
Premise 1: A baptised baby has supernatural faith
Premise 2: A baptised baby does not have certainty
Premise 3: Supernatural faith cannot be lost save through sin
Premise 4: It is possible that a person surpasses the age of reason without sin, and hence, it is possible that supernatural faith persists beyond the age of reason
Premise 5: It is also possible, nay, probable, that uncertainty persists beyond the age of reason
Conclusion: It is possible for a person to have supernatural faith after the age of reason, and yet not possess certainty

QED
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2018, 01:30:47 PM »
Premise 1: No one can pass from the state of grace to the state of mortal sin through no fault of their own
Premise 2: A baby who is baptised is in the state of grace
Premise 3: It is possible (probable even) that one does not gain absolute epistemic certainty when one surpasses the age of reason, and this from no fault of their own
Conclusion: It is possible for someone to be in the state of grace after the age of reason and not have absolute certitude in their faith.

QED

[And if it is true that lack of certainty = doubting, then I have also proven that a person can doubt after the age of reason and yet possibly be in the state of grace.  But this is not a claim I am necessarily making]

As Fr. Wathen puts it in one of his sermons, whenever Our Lord speaks of the matter of faith, almost always He gives us to understand that faith is a matter of degree. Which is to say that it can always increase and ought always to increase.

The greater our faith, the more certitude of belief we will possess. That's just the way that works. When Our Lord had to cast out the devil because the Apostles, having just returned from one their missionary journeys in which they have worked many miracles and they have cast out devils, could not cast out the devil from this boy.

The Apostles asked Our Lord "why could not we cast him out?" - Our Lord told the Apostles (of all people)....“because of your unbelief, for Amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed you shall say to this mountain remove from hence hither and it shall remove and nothing shall be impossible to you.”

Our Lord is telling the Apostles they do not have the faith even of a little seed, the smallest of seeds. He uses the mustard seed often to reference a very tiny thing, and He is saying that you do not even have that much faith because if you had even that much, you could move a mountain.

Here we see that Our Lord ties our degree of faith to our degree of belief, not really to grace - except perhaps indirectly, but that's a bit of a stretch I think.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2018, 01:31:22 PM »
.
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline TheReturnofLive

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2018, 12:46:43 AM »
Nonsense. I am absolutely certain that I exist. The negation of that statement is an absurdity, regardless of brains in vats, comas and "computer simulations": I am, and I am what I am, namely I, not a simulation, not a brain and not some other nonsensical ontological reduction of a thing to something other than what its signifier points to.

The only thing you can be certain of is the fact that you can choose to form thoughts in your own head. But how do you know that the thoughts in your head are actually yours?

Fine. Every single observable human hypostasis all have pre-programmed thoughts inside a computer simulation, and every single human hypostasis is nothing more than graphics and a complex executable code set to run for a certain amount of time.

You can't disprove this is actually the case anymore than you can prove that you are simply a human who actually exists.
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2018, 06:36:14 AM »
Yes, Scripture also speaks of those "of little faith" (Mat 8:26), of "weak faith" (Rom 14:1), and so on; yet these persons are to piously make acts of faith in Christ, as the Apostle teaches, and strive to grow in faith, and become strong in it, rather than try to unsettle or make others uncertain of our conviction that Jesus Christ is our God and Saviour; and His Church the Only True One.

We should make frequent acts of faith when tempted by doubt and to disbelief - if a beloved father or spouse promised us something, we would firmly believe it, much more should be believe the promises and testimony of God, Who is Truth and cannot lie.

We should pray sincerely and wholeheartedly, "O my God, I believe all that Your Holy Catholic Church teaches, because You have revealed it, Who can neither deceive nor be deceived". Remember the man who prayed, "I believe, Lord. Help my unbelief." (Mk 9:24).
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2018, 01:07:14 PM »
Premise 1: No one can pass from the state of grace to the state of mortal sin through no fault of their own
Premise 2: A baby who is baptised is in the state of grace
Premise 3: It is possible (probable even) that one does not gain absolute epistemic certainty when one surpasses the age of reason, and this from no fault of their own
Conclusion: It is possible for someone to be in the state of grace after the age of reason and not have absolute certitude in their faith.

QED

[And if it is true that lack of certainty = doubting, then I have also proven that a person can doubt after the age of reason and yet possibly be in the state of grace.  But this is not a claim I am necessarily making]

Premise 1: A baptised baby has supernatural faith
Premise 2: A baptised baby does not have certainty
Premise 3: Supernatural faith cannot be lost save through sin
Premise 4: It is possible that a person surpasses the age of reason without sin, and hence, it is possible that supernatural faith persists beyond the age of reason
Premise 5: It is also possible, nay, probable, that uncertainty persists beyond the age of reason
Conclusion: It is possible for a person to have supernatural faith after the age of reason, and yet not possess certainty

QED

This may be true, but you're failing to distinguish between the supernatural habit of faith and the supernatural act of faith. A baptised baby and an uncatechised adult have the habit but not the act; like someone who has the power of sight in their eyes, but happens to be in a dark room where no light is present to active that "visual habit". The fact is that the baptised baby and uncatechised adult do have certainty in their habit of faith, insofar as they have the habit which predisposes them to certain faith and that would produce in them acts of supernatural faith possessing certitude should they have the occasion to do so. The only reason that they do not have certitude in their acts of faith is because they don't have any acts of faith to begin with (not due to sin or negligence, but due to lack of necessary conditions). Should an occasion arise where they would have sufficient motive to make an act of faith (e.g. if they hear someone preaching the faith, and the grace of God moves them) and they fail to do so through sinful negligence (resisting God's grace, which would stir up the habit in them if not for their resistance): they sin against faith and lose the habit. To repeat: the supernatural habit of faith gives you the eyes to see, the ears to hear; but these "eyes" cannot see, and these "ears" cannot hear, unless there be something present to move them to act. Yet the "eyes" and the "ears" have certainty, in the sense of having a power to certainly attain their object (sight, hearing).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 01:11:53 PM by John Lamb »
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2018, 02:22:53 PM »
Before I dig a little deeper, I want to thank you John Lamb for your latest post.  What you outline seems to me to be the only legitimate way forward, and the only way to reconcile what we know from Catholic theology, the praxis of that theology, and common sense. 

So many angles to consider further....but....let us start with this one...you said:

"The fact is that the baptised baby and uncatechised adult do have certainty in their habit of faith, insofar as they have the habit which predisposes them to certain faith and that would produce in them acts of supernatural faith possessing certitude should they have the occasion to do so."

Ok, let us consider a baptised Orthodox baby.  They reach the age of reason, with the habit of supernatural faith.  So far, so good (well, not so good for anyone who believes that the supernatural habit of faith implies epistemic certitude, but I digress).  As the orthodox child matures, he is slowly exposed to ideas at odds with the true, Catholic, faith.  It seems to me that what you are saying is that if the Orthodox child has the habit of supernatural faith, he must be able to recognize, immediately and with certainty, which dogmas he is exposed to are true and which are heretical, when he is about to perform any act of faith. Full stop.  Is this consistent with what you are saying, John Lamb? 
People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung
 

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2018, 02:39:30 PM »
Not sure where you guys are coming up with this baptized baby that has supernatural faith. This is not true.

The baptized baby does not have any faith at all, rather, after baptism God adopts that baby, making that baby one of His adopted sons or daughters - as adopted children of God, they are heirs to heaven. But as babies, they do not have any faith at all. Reading what you guys are claiming makes no sense. 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2018, 03:25:06 PM »
Not sure where you guys are coming up with this baptized baby that has supernatural faith. This is not true.

The baptized baby does not have any faith at all, rather, after baptism God adopts that baby, making that baby one of His adopted sons or daughters - as adopted children of God, they are heirs to heaven. But as babies, they do not have any faith at all. Reading what you guys are claiming makes no sense.
This actually makes sense. But what I've been taught is that infants receive the faith when they are baptized... so I don't know.
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2018, 09:24:39 PM »
Not sure where you guys are coming up with this baptized baby that has supernatural faith. This is not true.

The baptized baby does not have any faith at all, rather, after baptism God adopts that baby, making that baby one of His adopted sons or daughters - as adopted children of God, they are heirs to heaven. But as babies, they do not have any faith at all. Reading what you guys are claiming makes no sense.

Hi Stubborn...thanks for your post friend!

In Baptism, the 3 theological virtues are bestowed, according to Catholic theology.  Now if faith is bestowed, and yet the baby does not have an attendant certainty with the bestowed supernatural virtue of faith, then it seems to be that certainty is not a necessary component of (the habit of) faith, since what is bestowed must be integrally good in itself.  The supernatural faith is a perfection in itself.

So, what exactly does supernatural faith, imparted to the infant at Baptism, vouchsafe for them afterwards?
People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2018, 06:48:40 AM »
Not sure where you guys are coming up with this baptized baby that has supernatural faith. This is not true.

The baptized baby does not have any faith at all, rather, after baptism God adopts that baby, making that baby one of His adopted sons or daughters - as adopted children of God, they are heirs to heaven. But as babies, they do not have any faith at all. Reading what you guys are claiming makes no sense.

Hi Stubborn...thanks for your post friend!

In Baptism, the 3 theological virtues are bestowed, according to Catholic theology.  Now if faith is bestowed, and yet the baby does not have an attendant certainty with the bestowed supernatural virtue of faith, then it seems to be that certainty is not a necessary component of (the habit of) faith, since what is bestowed must be integrally good in itself.  The supernatural faith is a perfection in itself.

So, what exactly does supernatural faith, imparted to the infant at Baptism, vouchsafe for them afterwards?

I am still not understanding. Can you please post the Catholic theology that teaches baptism bestows faith, hope and charity at baptism?

Baptized infants are not infused with the supernatural faith that has been spoken of in this thread, the reason Trent's catechism gives is that infants do not believe with the ascent of the mind - which is a necessary attribute of supernatural faith.

What infants do receive at baptism are the "mysterious gifts of faith", but not faith itself, certainly not supernatural faith. Although infants do not have any actual faith, through baptism, it could be said that infants receive the beginning of faith, perhaps even the inclination for the desire for faith once they attain the age of reason, and certainly because of their baptism,  they are to be counted among the faithful - but these are the "mysterious gifts of faith", not actual faith, and not supernatural faith.   
   
Trent's catechism:

Infants Receive The Graces Of Baptism

It may not be doubted that in Baptism infants receive the mysterious gifts of faith. Not that they believe with the assent of the mind, but they are established in the faith of their parents, if the parents profess the true faith; if not--to use the words of St. Augustine,--then in that of the universal society of the saints; for they are rightly said to be presented for Baptism by all those to whom their initiation in that sacred rite is a source of joy, and by whose charity they are united to the communion of the Holy Ghost.

Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2018, 09:19:39 AM »
I am still not understanding. Can you please post the Catholic theology that teaches baptism bestows faith, hope and charity at baptism?

Never mind, my bad - I think I see what you guys are talking about. The Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7 has it, albeit they are  speaking about adults, not infants, yet far as I can tell, they do not exclude infants. 

"....when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity.......



So, what exactly does supernatural faith, imparted to the infant at Baptism, vouchsafe for them afterwards?

It would seem that being predisposed to the faith as an infant, seems like it ought to be a great aid, prompting the person to seek and grow in the faith. IMO. 
Even after a long life of sin, if the Christian receives the Sacrament of the dying with the appropriate dispositions, he will go straight to heaven without having to go to purgatory. - Fr. M. Philipon; This sacrament prepares man for glory immediately, since it is given to those who are departing from this life. - St. Thomas Aquinas; It washes away the sins that remain to be atoned, and the vestiges of sin; it comforts and strengthens the soul of the sick person, arousing in him a great trust and confidence in the divine mercy. Thus strengthened, he bears the hardships and struggles of his illness more easily and resists the temptation of the devil and the heel of the deceiver more readily; and if it be advantageous to the welfare of his soul, he sometimes regains his bodily health. - Council of Trent
 
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Offline King Wenceslas

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2019, 03:48:21 PM »
John Lamb:

10 Q. How do we know the truths God has revealed?
A. We know the revealed truths by means of the Church, which is infallible; that is, by means of the Pope, the successor of St. Peter, and by means of the Bishops, the successors to the Apostles, who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself.

11 Q. Are we certain of the truths the Church teaches us?
A. We are most certain of the truths the Church teaches, because Jesus Christ pledged His word that the Church should never be led into error.

How so? Since the post Vatican II popes have taught error especially PF with the overturning of the "Church's" support of the death penalty. 10 & 11 definitely point towards sedevacantism (or some version of it) since 1958.

Actually these two Q&A from St. Pius X catechism are quite devastating unless there is the proverbial supernatural footnote* added to anything that the Church teaches.

*Unless Pope is bad dude that teaches error and you have to figure that out for yourself thus becoming a mini Pope in the process. Welcome to the Church.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 03:59:09 PM by King Wenceslas »
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for John Lamb
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2019, 04:18:59 PM »
John Lamb:

10 Q. How do we know the truths God has revealed?
A. We know the revealed truths by means of the Church, which is infallible; that is, by means of the Pope, the successor of St. Peter, and by means of the Bishops, the successors to the Apostles, who were taught by Jesus Christ Himself.

11 Q. Are we certain of the truths the Church teaches us?
A. We are most certain of the truths the Church teaches, because Jesus Christ pledged His word that the Church should never be led into error.

How so? Since the post Vatican II popes have taught error especially PF with the overturning of the "Church's" support of the death penalty. 10 & 11 definitely point towards sedevacantism (or some version of it) since 1958.

Actually these two Q&A from St. Pius X catechism are quite devastating unless there is the proverbial supernatural footnote* added to anything that the Church teaches.

*Unless Pope is bad dude that teaches error and you have to figure that out for yourself thus becoming a mini Pope in the process. Welcome to the Church.

Hi King Wenc....nice to interact with you.

What do you think of the following solution:  The Church's teaching on the death penalty is Ordinary Magisterium.  As most theologians agree, the Ord Mag can err.  However, the Ord Mag cannot teach anything spiritually harmful, even if erroneous.

So, it is possible that the death penalty is objectively permissible as traditionally taught, but Pope Francis simply erred by condemning/restricting it's use.  Under this solution, Pope Francis is wrong on this point, but no one is spiritually harmed by the error.

At least from this perspective, I don't see how this necessarily implies a defecting Church.

Happy New Year, King Wenc!!!   :)

People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung