Author Topic: All kinds of wrong  (Read 1053 times)

Offline Heinrich

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All kinds of wrong
« on: December 15, 2018, 11:17:28 AM »
Apparently priest tells truth, parents reaction typical of Zeitgeist. Who would like to elucidate here on how grossly pathetic this all is. Yes, tragic. But Justice requires measured compassion, no? Is a Mass for a suicide traditional teaching?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/parents-want-priests-whop-presided-over-sons-funeral-removed
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Offline Der Polka-König

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 12:19:09 PM »
So many things wrong here.

Quote
His funeral was on Dec. 8

First of all, why are they having a Funeral Mass on December 8, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception? Does the Novus Ordo actually allow that? Every rubrical system I'm familiar with would forbid a Missa Exequialis on that date.

Quote
"We wanted him to celebrate how Maison lived, not how he died," Maison's mother said.

That's not what a Funeral Mass is for. It's not time to celebrate, it's time to pray for his soul.

Quote
"Everybody seems to understand but the Catholic Church," said Jeff Hullibarger.

No, clearly the Catholic Church is the only one who actually does understand.

Quote
"People told me there was almost a smirk on his face," Jeff Hullibarger said.

Both (a) subjective, and (b) hearsay.

Quote
In a Thursday statement to the paper, the Archdiocese of Detroit said its hope "is always to bring comfort into situations of great pain, through funeral services centered on the love and healing power of Christ,” and that "unfortunately, that did not happen in this case."

Yes, at Requiems we do pray for consolation for the bereaved, but that is of much lower import than praying for the soul of the deceased.

Quote
"Really, the only way for that to happen is for this priest to be removed. We’re afraid that, like the Catholic Church does, they’ll send him off and he’ll do it to somebody else," Jeff Hullibarger said.

Ah, here's the crux of the issue: Clearly this is a man who bears a grudge against the Church, and is now pouncing on an opportunity to take it out on an individual priest who probably did nothing wrong.

Whether it is possible for someone who committed suicide to attain salvation is impossible for me to know, however, as it is in opposition to the Natural Law as well as the 5th Commandment, suicide would objectively at the very least lessen one's chance of salvation.
"The Modernists pass the same judgment on the most holy Fathers of the Church as they pass on tradition; decreeing, with amazing effrontery that, while personally most worthy of all veneration, they were entirely ignorant of history and criticism, for which they are only excusable on account of the time in which they lived. Finally, the Modernists try in every way to diminish and weaken the authority of the ecclesiastical magisterium itself by sacrilegiously falsifying its origin, character, and rights, and by freely repeating the calumnies of its adversaries."

-- St Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis
 
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Offline John Lamb

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 12:27:34 PM »
The way that the Novus Ordo is usually celebrated, sadly, tends to give Catholics the impression that the Mass IS about celebrating the "community", and not primarily about giving Almighty God his due. I witnessed it recently at a baptism which seemed to be about how cute the child was. With this widespread spiritual derangement in the Church it is no wonder that things might turn out awkwardly at a Mass offered for a suicide.
As many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. (John 1:12)
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2018, 01:24:40 PM »
The priest was an ass.

And so are you, if you think that preaching on the evil of suicide is any way appropriate at a Funeral Mass of one who committed suicide. Believe it or not, preaching the faith does not mean being as obnoxious, rude, insensitive, bullying, and condescending as you possibly can.
 

Offline Der Polka-König

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2018, 01:44:35 PM »
The priest was an ass.

And so are you, if you think that preaching on the evil of suicide is any way appropriate at a Funeral Mass of one who committed suicide. Believe it or not, preaching the faith does not mean being as obnoxious, rude, insensitive, bullying, and condescending as you possibly can.

Perhaps this is an example of why the Church traditionally, in her wisdom, has not allowed public funerals in cases of suicide.

However, I am not particularly inclined to believe the account of the deceased's parents, based on how they talk about the Church and her practices.

I can imagine three possibilities of what actually happened here:
  • The priest, lacking any sense of empathy, over-zealously preached on the evils of suicide at the most inopportune time (i.e. he was an ass)
  • The priest mentioned the evils of suicide and the difficulty of those who commit suicide attaining salvation, so as to beg the people to pray even more fervently for the soul of the deceased (i.e. exactly what he should be doing), and the poorly-catechized parents misunderstood
  • The parents are opportunists who want to exploit their son's death to convince the Church to become more "progressive" with regard to suicide (and perhaps other moral issues)

My estimate is that the second case is the most likely explanation.
"The Modernists pass the same judgment on the most holy Fathers of the Church as they pass on tradition; decreeing, with amazing effrontery that, while personally most worthy of all veneration, they were entirely ignorant of history and criticism, for which they are only excusable on account of the time in which they lived. Finally, the Modernists try in every way to diminish and weaken the authority of the ecclesiastical magisterium itself by sacrilegiously falsifying its origin, character, and rights, and by freely repeating the calumnies of its adversaries."

-- St Pius X, Pascendi Dominici Gregis
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2018, 03:24:22 PM »
I would like to believe bullet point two, too. To hold the funeral Mass on December 8th, though.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline aquinas138

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2018, 10:25:12 PM »
Perhaps this is an example of why the Church traditionally, in her wisdom, has not allowed public funerals in cases of suicide.

Even if it is not the primary reason, not allowing public funerals for suicides is undeniably a wise practice for this reason, too.

I suspect number two is the reason as well, with an emphasis on the poorly-catechized parents. It's obviously an emotional time, and, given the things I have heard in my life in the NO, I have very little confidence they have ever been taught anything remotely traditional about the gravity of suicide or the purpose of funeral Masses. None of which precludes the priest from having been an ass, too, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt unless I hear something more definite.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 
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Offline diaduit

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 02:10:44 AM »
I dunno but I think it was enough to not let the family do a eulogy and ask for prayers for his poor soul.  What point was there in saying he might be denied heaven at that stage. Telling the truth for it to be received is a matter of good timing too and a funeral I don't think was the place or time to do it.
 

Offline Davis Blank - EG

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 02:47:20 AM »
Priest tells the truth, people go nuts.  Father has a duty to get people out of their mindset that everything is hunky dory and we're all going to heaven anyways.  He has a duty to the deceased to get people to pray for his soul.

RIP.
 
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Offline james03

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2018, 02:14:11 PM »
The problem of nice.  It's why we have so many bastard children.  We call single mom's "heroes".  No, most of them are sluts.

So yes, point out that suicide will likely end you up in hell.  That's a deterrent.  You'll get less suicides and likely keep some souls out of hell.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 
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Offline james03

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2018, 03:54:06 PM »
Being that it is a NO parish, I wonder if they think everyone is saved, and thus are shocked?  Any priest that says anyone is saved is an heretic.  Only the saints are excluded from this, and that determination is made long after the burial. 

Also the news article gives no context.  For example, did it happen at the get together afterwards?  Did someone ask the priest what the Church teaches about suicide?  Don't know.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2018, 04:36:47 PM »
Being that it is a NO parish, I wonder if they think everyone is saved, and thus are shocked?  Any priest that says anyone is saved is an heretic.  Only the saints are excluded from this, and that determination is made long after the burial. 

Also the news article gives no context.  For example, did it happen at the get together afterwards?  Did someone ask the priest what the Church teaches about suicide?  Don't know.

Reminds me of something I heard once: "'Good people' don't go to Heaven; Saints go to Heaven."
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2018, 11:01:51 PM »
Turns out it's not just the priest being attacked by the family. They have also gotten the football coach fired for showing up at the funeral.

Their child commits suicide, and now it's time to lash out and destroy everyone around. Unfortunately, this is the reality of society these days. You're really walking through a minefield.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bully-coach-shows-funeral-teen-player-committed-suicide-184706352.html

'Bully' football coach fired after showing up to funeral of teen player who committed suicide

Maison Hullibarger, a former football star at Bedford High School in Temperance, Michigan, and a criminal justice student at the University of Toledo, committed suicide on Dec. 4. He was 18, according to the Detroit Free Press.

Jeffrey Wood, Maison’s football coach in high school, went to the funeral on Dec. 8. Linda Hullibarger, Maison’s mother, did not want him there. According to Jeff Hullibarger, Maison’s father, Wood has been bullying kids for years. In fact, four of his sons played for him.

“We knew Maison would not want him at his funeral. He did not treat Maison kindly. So it was our wish that he would not be there,” Linda told the Free Press.

And after one of the couple’s sons asked Wood to leave, Wood went to social media and said this:

“I was just asked to leave a funeral by a family member of a deceased football player. If you need someone to blame, I’m your man, I’m your fall guy. This is how society is when things go not as planned. We blame others for our own shortcomings. This tragedy is not about me or you. It’s about looking in the mirror as a human being and being real and honest with yourself.”

The coach was later fired after posting his comments.

A terrible homily
The Free Press’ report depicts a shocking scene that unfolded at Hullibarger’s funeral.

When Maison’s parent’s looked for comfort from their priest at the funeral, the priest delivered a disturbing homily about suicide.

The parents met with Father Don LaCuesta of Our Lady of Mount Carmel Catholic Church before the funeral to discuss what they expected to hear in the homily. Linda said they wanted LaCuesta to celebrate Maison’s life, not how he died.

But LaCuesta went against the Hullibarger’s wishes. “It was his time to tell everybody what he thought of suicide, [and] we couldn’t believe what he was saying,” Jeff told the newspaper. Jeff explained how LaCuesta condemned Maison, by calling him a sinner. People told Jeff there was almost a smirk on LaCuesta’s face.

“He wondered if he had repented enough to make it to heaven. He said ‘suicide’ upwards of six times,” Jeff said. The homily was so disturbing that a few young men who were Maison’s age left the church crying,  Jeff mentioned.

Jeff marched to the pulpit and politely asked LaCuesta to stop, but said LaCuesta didn’t oblige. After the service, Jeff and Linda told LaCuesta he wasn’t allowed at Maison’s gravesite burial.  After the funeral, LaCuesta, according to the couple, prevented them from eulogizing their son.

“I had words prepared, but when [the priest] was done, he was going to finish mass without giving anybody else the opportunity to say anything. He had the organist start playing and they were going to roll the casket out — some nerve,” Jeff said.

The Archdiocese of Detroit issued the following statement about the matter:

 “We share the family’s grief at such a profound loss. Our hope is always to bring comfort into situations of great pain, through funeral services centered on the love and healing power of Christ. “Unfortunately, that did not happen in this case. We understand that an unbearable situation was made even more difficult, and we are sorry. “After some reflection, the presider agrees that the family was not served as they should have been served. For the foreseeable future, he will not be preaching at funerals and he will have his other homilies reviewed by a priest mentor. In addition, he has agreed to pursue the assistance he needs in order to become a more effective minister in these difficult situations. “We have been in contact with the family since learning of this situation, and we will continue to offer our support going forward.

At the gravesite burial, Jeff and Lina “gave our own blessing of Maison, with everybody who loved him,” Jeff said.

Jeff and Linda thanked those who donated money to a GoFundMe site that would help with funeral expenses. Without the donations, “this would’ve been financially devastating for us,” Jeff said.

The couple later said they will never return to Our Lady of Mount Carmel Catholic Church. Linda said, “No, no, no!”
 
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Offline james03

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2018, 11:09:48 PM »
The parents are morons.  Yeah, football is tough on boys and they get their butts kicked.  This is why football players often do well in the real world.  The coach hints at problems with the parents in his statement.  I'm glad I've cut myself off from the N.O.  Freak show.

The US is toast, it is just a matter of time now.
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Offline Lynne

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Re: All kinds of wrong
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2018, 12:00:36 PM »
Wow, what a mess.
In conclusion, I can leave you with no better advice than that given after every sermon by Msgr Vincent Giammarino, who was pastor of St Michael’s Church in Atlantic City in the 1950s:

    “My dear good people: Do what you have to do, When you’re supposed to do it, The best way you can do it,   For the Love of God. Amen.”