Author Topic: Questions for Quare...  (Read 2585 times)

Offline St. Columba

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Questions for Quare...
« on: December 11, 2018, 11:48:07 AM »
I have several questions for Quare....I hope he will indulge me.  Seemed opportune to start a new thread for this purpose.  (Of course, others may chime in...)

1. My son, now 8, is of age to make his first communion.  Despite being baptised as an infant, when I ask him, now, if he is certain Catholicism is true, he essentially replies in the negative.  Should I bar him, and the rest of my children for that matter, from making their first first holy communion until such time as he (and then they) possess absolute certitude?

2. Is it a mortal sin for me to continue to practice the faith if I don't possess absolute certitude that it is true?

3. What is your opinion of Newman's Grammar of Assent?  What do you think of his concept of the Illative Sense, which he believes is the faculty of the human mind that makes up for where logic falls short, thus allowing for assent?  Would you agree that his prose essentially proves that he did not have supernatural faith?

Ok thanks man!

« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 02:16:09 PM by St. Columba »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2018, 04:07:35 PM »
St. Columba,
a more important question is: How did you raise your child and instruct him, that he is doubting the truth about the Catholic faith, when he is only 8 years old?
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 07:08:24 PM »
2. Is it a mortal sin for me to continue to practice the faith if I don't possess absolute certitude that it is true?
I don't know. But I am personally in that situation, (having no faith,) and I don't practice the faith. I do attend Mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation, since it's probably obligatory. But I don't participate in the worship, since it's possibly idolatrous. I don't deny that the Church is true, since the Church might be true. But I don't affirm it to be true either, since it might not be.

How did you raise your child and instruct him, that he is doubting the truth about the Catholic faith, when he is only 8 years old?
I doubt that it was the kid's fault or even St. Columba's fault. More likely, the kid lacks faith because, for some unknown reason, God wills that the kid lack faith. Maybe God not only gives faith but also takes faith away, not as punishment, but for reasons which are beyond our comprehension. In my situation, for example, I can only speculate as to why I don't have faith. Perhaps it was my fault. But perhaps not. I have no idea.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 07:18:45 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 07:23:59 PM »
I'll ask here a question from another thread that went unanswered.

These problems all go away once it is admitted humans mated with non-human hominids after being specially created.

There are peoples in sub-Saharan Africa who have neither Neanderthal DNA nor Denisovan DNA; do you therefore contend that they are not related to apes in any way?
 

Offline Matto

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 08:10:02 PM »
Honestly if the standards of belief to receive the sacraments are that high then none of us should be receiving the sacraments. Even saints have had doubts and they didn't as far as I know go years without receiving the sacraments until their doubts were somehow resolved. They did have some belief and prayed for a stronger faith and received the sacraments. Or at least I think that is what they did.

Honestly though I do not see how one could possibly be completely certain that the faith is true. Even if Jesus Christ himself came down from heaven and put your fingers in his wounds and told you to believe, you could always wonder whether you are simply insane.
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 09:20:46 AM »
Quote
II. Duties which parents owe to the spiritual welfare of their children, 1. Children should be baptized without delay, and from their earliest years must be instructed by their parents in their prayers, and the chief mysteries and duties of their religion. It is simply an evasion of duty on the part of parents to presume that children must learn these things at church and in the schoolroom, although parents, if possible, must also see that their children have the benefit of a Catholic school. 2. Parents should train their children in the practice of their religious duties and in piety, such as the saying of their morning and evening prayers, grace before and after meals, going to Mass on Sundays and Holydays, going to confession and Communion, and should inculcate, by word and example, right principles of conduct. It is important, however, that parents use good judgment and prudence in all these matters, so as not to disgust, or so unduly restrict and hamper their children that when the parental authority ceases, they will go to extremes in an opposite direction. 3. Parents should jealously guard their children from harm by studying their dispositions and keeping them away from bad books, companions, places, amusements, occasions, etc. 4. It is the duty of parent to correct the faults and bad manners of their children from their first years, since this is more easily accomplished in the beginning than later on. Corrections should be firm, neither too severe, nor too mild, and not more often administered than necessary, lest they lose their meaning and efficacy; they should be adapted to the circumstances of age, character, and the fault committed.
http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Duties%20of%20Parents.html
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 09:25:00 AM »


From “America”, September 23,1921 issue:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PFg_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA479&lpg=PA479&dq=the+obligation+of+Catholic+parents+to+raise+their+children+in+the+faith+under+pain+of+mortal+sin&source=bl&ots=qsyHvu0FOa&sig=gXLqpWFkds7tZS-zj6ntmeYU0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu7bvmtZrfAhUKOawKHU0vALAQ6AEwEHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20obligation%20of%20Catholic%20parents%20to%20raise%20their%20children%20in%20the%20faith%20under%20pain%20of%20mortal%20sin&f=false
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Education; your child and the Catholic school
The canon law states in simple and unmistakable terms that all parents are bound by a most grave obligation to provide for the religious education of their children.
“Parents are bound by a most grave obligation to the best of their ability provide for the religious and moral, as well as the physical and civil education of their children, as well as their temporal well being.”
A grave obligation binds under Mortal Sin. The determination to avoid an obligation so binding, when it can be fulfilled, debars from the Sacraments.  Consequently, parents who refuse to provide to the best of their ability to the moral and religious education of their children, cannot be admitted to the Sacraments. ………..”Religious instruction does not simply mean that the child must be taken to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. A religious education implies regular and careful instruction in the truths of revealed religion, none excepted.The child must be made to know according to his capacity, to understand his duties towards God, to his neighbor, to himself. The syllabus of any adequate religious course is long and intricate. The child must be taught and not left to pick up scraps of information from example only or chance word. He must be trained in the practice of religion;  he must be so instructed, that as far as diligence, knowledge and good will on part of his parents can secure the result, he will become all that is meant by the term “a practical Catholic”.....Yet unless they entrust their children to a Catholic school, all parents are obliged under pain of Mortal sin, to furnish an equivalent training.

"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 10:24:30 AM »
Michael, your posts are Exhibit A as to why I left this forum...Sheesh...I come back and you come out swinging, totally missing the whole point to boot. 

We are talking about certainty.  And I did not know you had such an intimate knowledge of my personal life.  How do you know I am not raising my 5 kids in a thoroughly Catholic manner? 

And by the way, Fr Ripperger said the duty to send kids to a Catholic School does not bind in the current climate, seeing as how un-Catholic the schools are.

Please refrain from further participating in this thread.  Thank you.
People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2018, 01:58:21 PM »
I have several questions for Quare....I hope he will indulge me.  Seemed opportune to start a new thread for this purpose.  (Of course, others may chime in...)

Sure.  Of course these are only my opinions.  But these are good questions and they show, to me, that Catholic theology is simply often detached from reality.

Quote
1. My son, now 8, is of age to make his first communion.  Despite being baptised as an infant, when I ask him, now, if he is certain Catholicism is true, he essentially replies in the negative.  Should I bar him, and the rest of my children for that matter, from making their first first holy communion until such time as he (and then they) possess absolute certitude?

It's frankly ridiculous to expect an 8-year-old to have the maturity of mind to be making a definite decision on a matter like religion, or that he is really capable of the "sin of heresy".  Catholic theology has to pretend otherwise, under the pretext that the child has reached "the age of reason" (for it can't abide the possibility of baptized Protestants who have reached the age of reason as nevertheless inside the Church), and under the fiction that the exact moment he reaches the "age of reason" he makes a decision either for or against God (as Limbo is no longer an option), at least if unbaptized.  I can quite confidently say Catholic theology is wrong on this point, for I made no such decision myself at the age of 7 or 8.  Sure, children who have reached the age of reason understand right and wrong - in a very confused, murky sort of way.

The sensible thing is to ask your child if he believes he is really receiving Jesus when he receives communion.  That's what First Communion classes actually do in practice, regardless of what theology says.

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2. Is it a mortal sin for me to continue to practice the faith if I don't possess absolute certitude that it is true?

Any and all apologetic attempts to prove faith to absolute certainty will fail and have failed.

So the right question to ask is this: Does practicing the faith provide you with spiritual benefits?  If so, then it's true for you.

Yes, I know theologians will object this is subjectivism and Modernism, and that Protestantism could be true for a Protestant, but too bad.

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3. What is your opinion of Newman's Grammar of Assent?  What do you think of his concept of the Illative Sense, which he believes is the faculty of the human mind that makes up for where logic falls short, thus allowing for assent?  Would you agree that his prose essentially proves that he did not have supernatural faith?

No, I believe there is a mystical capacity to humanity, over and above the intellect, will, and senses.  I really don't know whether this matches up with Newmans' Illative sense or not.
 
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Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2018, 02:40:32 PM »
Catholic theology has to pretend otherwise, under the pretext that the child has reached "the age of reason" (for it can't abide the possibility of baptized Protestants who have reached the age of reason as nevertheless inside the Church), and under the fiction that the exact moment he reaches the "age of reason" he makes a decision either for or against God (as Limbo is no longer an option), at least if unbaptized.  I can quite confidently say Catholic theology is wrong on this point, for I made no such decision myself at the age of 7 or 8.  Sure, children who have reached the age of reason understand right and wrong - in a very confused, murky sort of way.

Quare, I truly appreciate your taking the time to answer my questions.

Please forgive me for what follows, but....

Is it not your idiosyncratic notion of faith, and not that of the Catholic Church, that cannot adequately weather my questions?  Your notion of faith demands absolute unsullied faith as a precondition for actually possessing supernatural faith.  And no supernatural faith => one should not approach the sacraments. 

AFAIK, the church does not go around doing witch hunts on 8 years to assess if they have absolute certainty.  They ask, reasonably so, the simple question, "do you believe"?  But if you were correct --- that is, that absolute certitude is a precondition for receiving the sacraments --- then the Church has been quite derelict in it's duty to not demand this of it's 8 year old first communicants.

Again, please forgive me.  I am phrasing my questions in such a way as to show the implications of your notion of faith, and this seems like an effect way to do that.

But, I still don't see where you are wrong in your conception of faith.  I simply want to get to the bottom of this question.  It has been plaguing me for months... But heck, it took Newman like 20 years to finish his Grammar, and if an intellectual powerhouse like Newman could not figure it out, what hope have I got?

My first question for Newman would probably be: why does the Illative sense only work for Roman Catholics (and curiously excluding sedevacantists  :) )?  But seriously....why just Catholics...and why only some Catholics?  Because if the illative sense is common to humanity en masse, why is it faulty for like 6/7 ths of the planet?


The sensible thing is to ask your child if he believes he is really receiving Jesus when he receives communion.  That's what First Communion classes actually do in practice, regardless of what theology says.

Agreed!


Any and all apologetic attempts to prove faith to absolute certainty will fail and have failed.

So the right question to ask is this: Does practicing the faith provide you with spiritual benefits?  If so, then it's true for you.

Yes, I know theologians will object this is subjectivism and Modernism, and that Protestantism could be true for a Protestant, but too bad.

Sorry man, but you don't usually wield such a blunt instrument....I cannot agree with this, and I don't think you do either.


Quote
3. What is your opinion of Newman's Grammar of Assent?  What do you think of his concept of the Illative Sense, which he believes is the faculty of the human mind that makes up for where logic falls short, thus allowing for assent?  Would you agree that his prose essentially proves that he did not have supernatural faith?

No, I believe there is a mystical capacity to humanity, over and above the intellect, will, and senses.  I really don't know whether this matches up with Newmans' Illative sense or not.

Ya, it is hard to say.

Interestingly, I think my faith satisfied Newmanian and Thomistic conceptions of "certitude", but not Quarist.
People don't have ideas...ideas have people.  - Jordan Peterson quoting Carl Jung
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2018, 05:12:02 PM »
Please forgive me for what follows, but....

Is it not your idiosyncratic notion of faith, and not that of the Catholic Church, that cannot adequately weather my questions?  Your notion of faith demands absolute unsullied faith as a precondition for actually possessing supernatural faith.  And no supernatural faith => one should not approach the sacraments. 

No, the Church teaches one needs supernatural faith before approaching the sacraments, and at least all theologians who talk on the subject teach that faith demands absolute certainty.  I didn't just make this up.

Quote
AFAIK, the church does not go around doing witch hunts on 8 years to assess if they have absolute certainty.  They ask, reasonably so, the simple question, "do you believe"?  But if you were correct --- that is, that absolute certitude is a precondition for receiving the sacraments --- then the Church has been quite derelict in it's duty to not demand this of it's 8 year old first communicants.

Yep.  Or the Church realizes the utter futility of carrying this to its logical conclusion.

Quote
My first question for Newman would probably be: why does the Illative sense only work for Roman Catholics (and curiously excluding sedevacantists)

He wouldn't say it does (I don't think).

Quote

Any and all apologetic attempts to prove faith to absolute certainty will fail and have failed.

So the right question to ask is this: Does practicing the faith provide you with spiritual benefits?  If so, then it's true for you.

Yes, I know theologians will object this is subjectivism and Modernism, and that Protestantism could be true for a Protestant, but too bad.

Sorry man, but you don't usually wield such a blunt instrument....I cannot agree with this, and I don't think you do either.

Agree with what, exactly?

 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2018, 06:37:57 PM »
Quote
If so, then it's true for you.

Yes, I know theologians will object this is subjectivism and Modernism, and that Protestantism could be true for a Protestant, but too bad.

No, that actually makes you a "subjectivist", which in this case is either a spouter of ontological nonsense or, not to be guilty of an equivocation, someone who claims that there are ways of getting to Heaven other than those Christ and the Apostles taught were necessary, namely faith in him, the regeneration of baptism, and avoidance of sin unto death. These are conditions a Protestant might meet but which Protestantism does not teach.

Debates with this man over theistic evolution or the nitty-gritty pedantries of scholastic theology are really missing the point, the point being that they are only sideshows branching out from his fundamental world view, which is not Christian, and the state of his soul, which looks to be without supernatural faith. At the very least, it's ugly. Notice how on every point he makes it a point to disagree with Catholicism in one way or another. It's patently clear he has lost the Catholic Faith, if he ever subscribed to it, and more broadly anything that might be identified with Apostolic Christianity. He calls himself a "Byzantine Catholic" but of course his views, which are just wordly at heart and poisoned by an ugly cynicism that seeps out of every remark, would endear him neither to them nor to the orthodox Orthodox, and I think his purpose here is to criticise and discredit the Faith: what he needs is not debate, which is meaningless unless one holds to his own views, but a punch in the face.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2018, 06:40:14 PM »
I have several questions for Quare....I hope he will indulge me.  Seemed opportune to start a new thread for this purpose.  (Of course, others may chime in...)

Why would you ask him of all people here? Did you not get the answers you expected, namely, an opportunity for him to show off his autistic arrogance and drag Catholicism through the mud?
 

Offline St. Columba

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2018, 08:00:34 PM »
No, the Church teaches one needs supernatural faith before approaching the sacraments, and at least all theologians who talk on the subject teach that faith demands absolute certainty.  I didn't just make this up.

Kreuzritter: Do you agree with this?  Is it common among theologians to teach that faith demands absolute certainty, the variety of which admits of absolutely no shade or hint that the faith might actually not be true?

And what of my 8 year old son?  He is just honestly answering a simple question I asked him.  Are you certain, Luke, that Catholicism is true? Maybe Dad.  What I am supposed to do Kreuzritter?

I asked my mother, who has gone to Mass pretty much every day for the past 25 years (Holy Rosary every day too), if she was absolutely certain, and she said, "but how can we ever be 100% certain", or words to that effect.  I mean, if that venerable woman does not have supernatural faith, then it is hard for me to imagine who does....
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:05:51 PM by St. Columba »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Questions for Quare...
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 08:27:02 PM »
St. Columba,
 that question is precisely the problem; your son is picking up on your own doubts by this leading question. You are inadvertently sowing these same in his mind. That is the gist of the previous posts; an 8 year old is too young to be posing this type of question to. Instead endeavor to fill him with certainty by stating the truths of the faith in clear and certain terms. 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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