Author Topic: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.  (Read 2041 times)

Offline Gardener

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"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2018, 10:20:34 AM »
Thanks to Lynne and Gardener for the references.

16. Isa 40:3 (The Messiah is to be preceded by a Precursor – John the Baptist was not coincidental) "[3] The voice of one crying in the desert: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the wilderness the paths of our God." : the scribes knew this prophesy well and St. John the Baptist - whose ministry is also recorded in Josephus and other historical sources - cited it to them to show them that the foretold time of the Messianic advent had come.

17. Mal 3:1 (The Lord Himself will come suddenly and unexpectedly as a Messenger to the Temple; to be read along with the passage in Isaiah, as the promise of the Precursor is here confirmed once more) "[1] Behold I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts." The promise of a Precursor and the assurance that the time of the Messiah draws near.

18. Isa 7:14 (As a sign, Immanuel, i.e. God with us, will be born of a Virgin – the Incarnation of the Word is foretold) [14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel. - this prophesy is cited by St. Matthew the Apostle, regarding the Virgin Birth of Christ to His Virgin Mother Mary. It was already pre-announced in Gen 3:15, which has been called the Proto-evangelium, since it implies God will be born as the Seed of the Woman without a human father; then the Messiah, by His Mother, would crush the Serpent's head. In Isa 66:7-8, the promise of a miraculous birth is confirmed, "[7] Before she was in labour, she brought forth; before her time came to be delivered, she brought forth a man child. [8] Who hath ever heard such a thing? and who hath seen the like to this?" in a prophetic figure referring to the mystical city of God, Who is our Immaculate Virgin Mother Mary.

19. (Isa 9:1-2) (The Light of Christ will shine forth from Galilee) At the first time the land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephtali was lightly touched: and at the last the way of the sea beyond the Jordan of the Galilee of the Gentiles was heavily loaded. [2] The people that walked in darkness, have seen a great light: to them that dwelt in the region of the shadow of death, light is risen. - the scribes of Jesus' day had clearly overlooked this prophesy, and looked down on Gentiles in general. They had forgotten that great things were promised for the Gentiles and to the land that had been in darkness, that a great Light would arise upon them. The Prophet Isaiah who foretells the gathering of the Gentiles by Christ also foretells a special promise to Galilee. Nazareth was a city of Galilee (Luc 1:26). The prophesy is mentioned by St. Matthew in the Gospel. (Mat 4:16)
 
20. Zech 13:1 (The fountain of regeneration that is Holy Baptism is here foretold in the Prophets) "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity."

As there are so many prophesies and prophetic foreshadowings of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and of the Eucharistic Presence in the Church, so Baptism and the other Sacraments were foretold. In the old covenant, it was very difficult to obtain forgiveness of sins; circumcision was necessary before Baptism was instituted. God foretells that in a fountain of water, all sins will be washed away. St. Paul seems to be citing this when he relates, “Rise up, and be baptized, and wash away your sins” (Acts 22:16), showing the power of the Sacraments left to the Church to remit sin, and regenerate the soul.

No mere man could have done and accomplished so much – a new Priesthood, new rites for forgiveness of sins, a new universal Sacrifice offered everywhere from dawn to dusk etc - certainly not any man who died on a Cross but remained dead. Jesus Christ did it because He is God and rose again.

In the Prophet Isaiah itself, God often says He fore-announces events well in advance, so that at least after those wondrous things have come to pass, no one may any longer waver in doubt, weakness, unbelief, and double-mindedness, but come to firm and constant faith and fidelity to Him.

In another thread, we saw St. Montfort mention that helping a sinner to come to God and receive Him is in a certain sense an infinite good, since it allows one who was perishing to receive the infinite God and be saved. It is hoped that by a study of these Messianic prophecies, (1) greater interest in studying the Scriptures in general will be kindled. (2) the Faith of Christians will be confirmed, strengthened and increased, and finally (3) serious non-Christians will study more carefully the life and Person of Jesus Christ, leading them to find eternal salvation and endless happiness in Him and in His Church. God bless.
Please pray the Association of Precious Blood prayers daily, especially in the great month of July: https://www.preciousbloodinternational.com/prayers4k.html Please pray for aborted and for babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Saints say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary to Save All Souls everywhere.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2018, 05:15:22 AM »
Quote from: Kreuzritter
One can accept the Jewish prophecies as accurate from the the conviction, based in a rational investigation and judgment, that the historical person Jesus of Nazareth existed and actually met their conditions after they had been written, provided one doesn't dismiss a priori the possibility of prophecy

Agreed, Kreuzritter. Thanks. St. Justin Martyr, an early Christian and Church Father, who was formerly a pagan philosopher, became a Christian largely for this reason. He explains some of it in the work cited earlier, "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0128.htm - From the study of philosophy, he (and others) had clearly come to the conclusion that there was one Supreme God; he recounts that he met an elderly Christian who told him that only the God Who spoke to Moses had revealed Himself as the One Supreme God, Who created all there is, and had done this centuries before the Greek philosophers arrived at the same conclusion; and that while the philosophers were only speculating, and had not seen or known God as He truly is, the Prophets had seen Him as He is and known Him by revelation. And, according to His promises, the God Who spoke to the Prophets had become Man and fulfilled all the promises made to the Patriarchs.

So, here, we have a path out of the errors of paganism to the Truth of Christianity (1) First, the fact that reason and philosophy proves clearly that God is One; this fact refutes all religions that deny God is one, and shows them to be false; and as a corollary, it is at the least a very strong indicator that the God Who spoke to Abraham, to Moses and the Prophets is the true God, for only this God taught and revealed the same Truth clearly, and emphasized it consistently; and all this many centuries before philosophy discovered it,(2) Second, St. Justin easily decided between Judaism and Christianity, which both teach there is one God, because of the Prophecies.

Similarly, Islamism too can be excluded, since the prophecies clearly show the Messiah will be divine. Islamism also denies the crucifixion, and that is both a historical fact and attested to by the Prophets.

Thus, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and others who seek the Truth can easily come to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the God Who from Heaven taught the Prophets that God was one. And Who became incarnate in the fullness of time, as both Priest and Sacrifice, to atone for and expiate all sin.

Beside the historical testimonies from even Jewish, pagan and secularist historians, the fact of the crucifixion and the sufferings of Christ are attested by many artifacts like the Shroud of Turin, the Sudarium Christi, and the Veil of Veronica, which are on display in various churches around the world.

21. Isa 50:6 (The Lord's Servant struck on His cheeks and body without cause) I have given my body to the strikers, and my cheeks to them that plucked them: I have not turned away my face from them that rebuked me, and spit upon me.

22. Lam 3:28-30 (He has taken it onto Himself to suffer for His people) "[28] Jod. He shall sit solitary, and hold his peace: because he hath taken it up upon himself. [29] Jod. He shall put his mouth in the dust, if so be there may be hope. [30] Jod. He shall give his cheek to him that striketh him, he shall be filled with reproaches."

23. Psa 21:7-10; 13-19 (The Lord’s annointed overwhelmed with sorrows; hated without cause) [7] But I am a worm, and no man: the reproach of men, and the outcast of the people. [8] All they that saw me have laughed me to scorn: they have spoken with the lips, and wagged the head. [9] He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him. [10] ... Many calves have surrounded me: fat bulls have besieged me. [14] They have opened their mouths against me, as a lion ravening and roaring. [15] I am poured out like water; and all my bones are scattered. My heart is become like wax melting in the midst of my bowels. [16] My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue hath cleaved to my jaws: and thou hast brought me down into the dust of death. [17] For many dogs have encompassed me: the council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet. [18] They have numbered all my bones. And they have looked and stared upon me. [19] They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots.

24. Isa 52:6-7 (The Lord comes Himself to redeem the People; proclaiming Good News) Therefore my people shall know my name in that day: for I myself that spoke, behold I am here. [7] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, and that preacheth peace: of him that sheweth forth good, that preacheth salvation, that saith to Sion: Thy God shall reign!

25. Isa 52:13-15 (The Servant’s Suffering and Exaltation) [13] Behold my servant shall understand, he shall be exalted, and extolled, and shall be exceeding high. [14] As many have been astonished at thee, so shall his visage be inglorious among men, and his form among the sons of men. [15] He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: for they to whom it was not told of him, have seen: and they that heard not, have beheld.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_ben_Joseph

In accordance with the expectation of a Suffering Messiah, called the Son of Joseph, we see that the Messiah is both exalted and suffering. He is the Suffering Servant Who first atones for and expiates all sin. Then, He is raised up in glory, so that seated at the Father’s right hand, the kings of the earth adore Him. No mere man would even attempt such a thing, for how can anybody control his own exaltation post-death? Only God could foresee and announce and Providently ensure such a thing. God did the same thing for the ancient Patriarch Joseph, thrown in a pit, but raised up to Pharoah’s right hand. He alone has ensured that His Messiah Who died on a Cross is worshiped by people from all nations.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 05:17:06 AM by Xavier »
Please pray the Association of Precious Blood prayers daily, especially in the great month of July: https://www.preciousbloodinternational.com/prayers4k.html Please pray for aborted and for babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Saints say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary to Save All Souls everywhere.
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2018, 10:27:38 AM »
Is there any historical evidence to suggest that these various scriptural passages were ever regarded as explicit "prophecies" before the fact? I believe that at least some of them were (e.g. the Daniel prophecy, which I'm currently looking into; and the Isaias stuff which Xavier already pointed out)... but most of them just seem to be a case of Christians looking back into the Scriptures after the fact and then finding additional meaning in passages which were never regarded as prophecy to begin with. (In which case some of it might be typology, and some of it might be mere coincidence, but in either case it doesn't seem to be "prophecy".)
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2018, 10:45:59 AM »
Is there any historical evidence to suggest that these various scriptural passages were ever regarded as explicit "prophecies" before the fact? I believe that at least some of them were (e.g. the Daniel prophecy, which I'm currently looking into; and the Isaias stuff which Xavier already pointed out)... but most of them just seem to be a case of Christians looking back into the Scriptures after the fact and then finding additional meaning in passages which were never regarded as prophecy to begin with. (In which case some of it might be typology, and some of it might be mere coincidence, but in either case it doesn't seem to be "prophecy".)

I was going to post a link earlier in the thread to an article on Bart Ehrman's blog that speaks to your concern.   It contains a glaring typo, however, so I decided against it.  But since you ask, his answer to your question is that the messianic prophecies were retro-fitted.  (Obviously, the first line of the fourth paragraph should read, "the so-called 'messianic prophecies' that are said to point to Jesus were never taken to be messianic prophecies by Jews," and I don't know why a published author of his stature can't get a proof-reader).

These disputes are as old as time and can only be resolved by attaining faith, so I don't think pointing to these prophecies really proves much to the agnostic.  I forget if it was Julian the Apostate or Celsus or Porphyry, but one of the Roman critics from antiquity quipped something like "after the crucifixion, every last mention of wood or even a tree branch in the Jewish scriptures was suddenly taken to be a reference to the cross."

« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 11:02:58 AM by Pon de Replay »
 
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Online Michael Wilson

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2018, 11:15:46 AM »
Our Lord and the Apostles appealed to the prophecies as evidence of the truth of His person and mission; for example, when the wise come to Jerusalem, and Herod consults the Scribes, they tell him that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem according to the prophecy of Michheas 5.2:
Quote
[3] And king Herod hearing this, was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. [4] And assembling together all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where Christ should be born. [5] But they said to him: In Bethlehem of Juda. For so it is written by the prophet:

[6] And thou Bethlehem the land of Juda art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come forth the captain that shall rule my people Israel.
Certainly the Scribes and Herod the Great took this prophecy seriously; and we know how Herod acted upon it. 
The fact that He was of the family of David was another important fact, that is again brought up when His right to claim the title of Christ is questioned for it was an accepted fact that the Messiah would be a descendant of David.
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"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2018, 07:58:01 AM »
Here's another: the 'star prophecy' from Numbers 24:17. This passage was regarded as a messianic prophecy by anti-Roman Jews of the mid first-century A.D. I'm not sure whether it can be traced back any earlier than that though.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2018, 08:06:20 AM »
Yes, Michael, it is astonishing that the Pharisees were not able to see the plain fact that the Messiah promised them was to be divine. Jesus clearly and forcefully, from the Psalms, proves to them that He is the Lord of David; the Son of God Who deigns to become the Son of Man in His Mercy. Mat 22:43 "He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying: 44The Lord said to my Lord, Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?45If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 46And no man was able to answer him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions." (Mat 22:43-46 - Psa 109:1 is cited)

Daniel, did you see Isaiah 53? Beside the plain sense of the passage, which speaks of atonement for sin by a Man laying down His life like a Lamb of Sacrifice there are clear historical confirmation that this passage was always viewed as referring to the Messiah. Only around 1000 A.D., does one solitary view to the contrary from Rashi appear, and even that is rejected by Maimonides and others even among the Jews. One scholar said "our Rabbis with one voice tell us that the Prophet [in Isaiah 53] speaks of King Messiah". It is no coincidence that the Lamb of Sacrifice was offered on a stake like a cross, thus typifying the Sacrifice of the Lamb of God, Who would atone for all sin in His own blood.

Hi Pon. Would you like to comment on Daniel's (the Prophet's, not the poster's!) text regarding the Son of Man being given all Glory and Power by the Ancient of Days, while all nations worship Him? That is Chapter 7 as mentioned earlier. Don't you think this Messianic figure is both God and Man? :) or how do you interpret it? Historically speaking, this has a long Tradition. Even in the extra-canonical historical Book of Enoch, there are clear allusions to a divine Son of Man Who stands before the Lord of Hosts and Who is both divine and human.

Quote
[46.1-4] "And there I saw the One to Whom belongs the time before time, and His head was white like wool. With Him was another being, whose countenance had the appearance of a man, and his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels. I asked the angel who went with me [...] concerning that son of and who he was, and whence he was, and why he went with the One to Whom belongs the time before time.

He answered and said to me: 'This is the son of man who has righteousness, with whom dwells righteousness, and who reveals all the treasures of that which is hidden, because the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and whose lot has the pre-eminence before the Lord of the spirits in uprightness for ever. This son of man whom you have seen shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats and the strong from their thrones, and shall loosen the reins of the strong and break the teeth of the sinners.'

[48.2-10] And at that hour that Son of Man was named in the presence of the Lord of the spirits, and his name before the the One to Whom belongs the time before time. Yes, before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of the heaven were made, his name was named before the Lord of the spirits. He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall, and he shall be the light of the gentiles and the hope of those who are troubled of heart. All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him, and will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of the spirits. For this reason has he been chosen and hidden before Him, before the creation of the world and for ever more. The wisdom of the Lord of the spirits has revealed him to the holy and righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness, and have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of the spirits: for in his name they are saved, and according to his good pleasure has it been in regard to their life."
http://www.livius.org/sources/content/1-enoch-the-son-of-man/
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:10:23 AM by Xavier »
Please pray the Association of Precious Blood prayers daily, especially in the great month of July: https://www.preciousbloodinternational.com/prayers4k.html Please pray for aborted and for babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Saints say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary to Save All Souls everywhere.
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2018, 09:46:39 AM »
Hi Pon. Would you like to comment on Daniel's (the Prophet's, not the poster's!) text regarding the Son of Man being given all Glory and Power by the Ancient of Days, while all nations worship Him? That is Chapter 7 as mentioned earlier. Don't you think this Messianic figure is both God and Man? :) or how do you interpret it? Historically speaking, this has a long Tradition. Even in the extra-canonical historical Book of Enoch, there are clear allusions to a divine Son of Man Who stands before the Lord of Hosts and Who is both divine and human.

Hola, Xavier.  I have nothing against Daniel 7:13-15 as a messianic prophecy.  But to answer your question, no, I am not seeing how this passage definitively says that the messiah is both God and man.  I don't see that it rules out the Jewish interpretation (which is what it would have to do in order to be definitive).  The Hebrew will say this is the record of a mystical vision of an earthly figure who will be anointed and given power to rule by God; the Christian will say that since this action is taking place in Heaven, the figure is therefore divine.  Possessing neither the Jewish nor the Christian faith, I can only suspend my judgement.

What do you say to the fact that in this passage the messiah is being "given" power and glory from God after being "presented before him"?  This would seem to imply a separation between the two, and a transaction where the power and glory is bequeathed instead of being something already possessed from all eternity.  Even from a Christian perspective, this carries more of an Arian sense than an Athanasian one. 

In any event, the prophecy remains partially unfulfilled, since we do not at present see "all peoples, tribes, and tongues serving him."  Only a fourth of the earth's ≈8bn are Christian, and only half that are Catholic, most of which are Novus Ordo (which can hardly be anyone's idea of glorious), and of Catholics, a small percentage are actually traditional Catholics, themselves awash in sectarianism, with arguments being conducted on this very forum over whether Fatima is demonic and what Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus even means, and where one poster says "your God is a monster" with another firing back, "yours is a tantrum-throwing psychopath."  You have to wonder if these competing theological schools even worship the same god.  "My kingdom is not of this world" indeed—but until the heavens and the earth pass away and God ushers in the world to come, we are still in expectation of part of this prophecy, are we not?


« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 11:07:38 AM by Pon de Replay »
 
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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2018, 11:58:04 AM »
Pon,
that the Messiah would receive Power and Glory from God after being presented to Him, is in reference to Christ's humanity being outwardly given said power and glory. Christ as man although united Hypostatically to the Word from the moment of His conception, came in lowliness and humility; but upon entering Heaven was presented with His glorious kingdom. The final exterior triumph of Christ will come at the End of the World when He will return in outward glory to judge mankind.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2018, 01:10:34 PM »
Pon,
that the Messiah would receive Power and Glory from God after being presented to Him, is in reference to Christ's humanity being outwardly given said power and glory. Christ as man although united Hypostatically to the Word from the moment of His conception, came in lowliness and humility; but upon entering Heaven was presented with His glorious kingdom. The final exterior triumph of Christ will come at the End of the World when He will return in outward glory to judge mankind.

Thank you, Michael.  Just to be clear, though: I don't say the passage excludes the Catholic reading in any way.  I only offer that it doesn't negate the Jewish interpretation.  It's possible to interpret it either way and, indeed, partisans on both sides do just that.

All I contend here is that the nature of the messiah is arguable in the passage (it could be Jewish, Trinitarian, or non-) and that since "the final exterior triumph of Christ" has not yet arrived, this prophecy has at best only a 50% fulfillment rate thus far.  I'm sure he was trying to be ecumenical rather than cheeky, but Pope Benedict XVI acknowledged this when he famously said, "the Jewish Messianic wait is not in vain."
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2018, 10:06:03 PM »
As a believing Catholic I think that, whatever some Jews and humanists want to think, the fact is that God planned the prophetic teaching of the Old Testament to foreshadow the coming of Christ.  Each sheds light on the other. As a believer, first becoming aware of the prophecies I gasp in awe ("Wow!") at the now readily apparent reflection. But we also know that some Jews have seen the amazing correspondence and been prompted to think that maybe there is more to this Christ than they had thought.

Probably for most people prophesies are not a matter of proof starting from  total disbelief. They are evidence that adds to other evidence to make people more open to accepting Christ.  If they are not at all open in the first place they will refuse to see any significance.

God works through signs not just airtight logical arguments.  Some stubbornly refuse to read the signs because "they don't have to be read that way". They need to pray to be open to what God really means.
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2018, 07:58:09 PM »
I was going to post a link earlier in the thread to an article on Bart Ehrman's blog that speaks to your concern.

Unrelated question...

In his blog post, Ehrman makes a second point where he alleges that some of the stuff in the New Testament was fabricated by Christians in order to falsify the historical record, such as to make it appear that Christ fulfilled certain Old Testament prophecies which he did not in fact fulfill. Now I am not all that familiar with Ehrman's views... but this doesn't seem to make much sense. If the early Christians knew that Christianity was a false religion, and if Christians at that time were being persecuted, then why did Christians make this stuff up? If they knew that Christ did not fulfill the prophecies then why would they have even remained Christian? Why wouldn't they have just admitted that Christ was not the messias?
Or does Ehrman hold that the persecutions themselves are non-historical, i.e. that later Christians fabricated the historical records such as to make it appear that the early Christians were persecuted and martyred when in fact they weren't?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 08:00:46 PM by Daniel »
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2018, 09:26:15 AM »
In his blog post, Ehrman makes a second point where he alleges that some of the stuff in the New Testament was fabricated by Christians in order to falsify the historical record, such as to make it appear that Christ fulfilled certain Old Testament prophecies which he did not in fact fulfill. Now I am not all that familiar with Ehrman's views... but this doesn't seem to make much sense. If the early Christians knew that Christianity was a false religion, and if Christians at that time were being persecuted, then why did Christians make this stuff up?

His contention would be that everything followed from the Christians' core belief that Jesus was the Messiah.  They weren't so much making stuff up as they were making stuff fit.  Believing foremost in Jesus' messiaship, it logically followed for them that Jesus must have originally been from Bethlehem if the book of Micah predicted the messiah would come from there.  As to precisely how this might've been arrived at, Ehrman would argue that the account which ended up in Luke (the census of Quirinius) was one explanation which made the rounds, even though it now appears to have gotten its dates mixed up, and been mistaken about people returning to their ancestral towns.  But because it fulfilled the prophecy, it was perfectly believable to anyone who already had faith in Jesus as the Messiah and who, in Luke's case, was compiling testimony for his gospel—or indeed, to anyone who was being evangelized and did not have the wherewithal to fact-check that gospel.  Anyway, whoever did come up with such an explanation in the first place was almost certainly not doing it in a cynical or deliberate fashion, since as you rightly point out, there was no earthly gain in being a Christian, only persecution.

You and I have witnessed something similar transpire in real time with our forum compatriot QMR and his peculiar beliefs about theistic evolution.  When it comes to sheer novelties like "evolution positively occurred, but Adam & Eve were specially created" or "the curse of the Fall was retroactively applied by God to ensure the sufferings of pre-lapsarian animals," it is clear (to me at least) that he is making this stuff up as he goes along—"pulling it out of his arse," as they say.  And yet at the same time I think he very sincerely believes these things to be absolutely true.  He has nothing much to gain from it except for the scorn of both his fellow traditional Catholics and his fellow evolutionists, but he finds himself intellectually convinced of evolution and 100% certain of Catholicism.  So when someone quotes Humani Generis at him and shows him that Catholics are de fide obliged to belief in a first pair, he develops a narrative that fits.  Professor Ehrman would say that this is what happened when the Christian belief in Jesus as the Messiah met up with questions early on as to how he fulfilled the prophecies.  People will believe that their own pious fictions are true; and that much requires only one person.  After that, every subsequent believer can take it on as gospel fact.


« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 10:06:13 AM by Pon de Replay »
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2018, 11:49:11 AM »
http://www.comereason.org/roman-census.asp

Just to put in a antidote to Pon de replays poisonous remarks..