Messianic prophesies: proof of God's foreknowledge and Providence.

[Xavier]

This is for Daniel and others doubting or enquiring into the Faith. It is a historical fact that the Patriarchs and Prophets awaited the pre-announced coming of the promised Messiah for 1000s and 1000s of years. God had already promised Christ would come one day, and the Prophets began to foretell more and more explicitly what Christ would accomplish and Who this Messiah would be. He would (1) be Himself the sacrificial Lamb atoning for all sin (2) He would be a light to all Gentile (non-Jewish) nations, though of the stock of David (3) He would be the Son of God, the Lord of David (4) He would institute a sacrificial Priesthood that would perpetuate His offering forever (5) He would even have to come at the fore-announced time, when the Temple was still standing (6) shortly after He came, animal sacrifice in Jerusalem would cease (7) He will establish a New Covenant; and much much more.

How do non-Christians explain this? Below are just some out of dozens of prophesies.

10. (Isaias 53:5, circa 700 B.C.) [Christ's Sacrifice, Death and Atonement]"[5] But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed ... He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth." This prophesy, the fourth of the four Suffering Servant Prophesies in "the most evangelical of the Prophets", is a clear prophetic foretelling of the sacrificial death and atonement of the Messiah. He would be Himself the Paschal Lamb and offer Himself as the most perfect Sacrifice in atonement of all sin.

9. (Isa 49:6-7, circa 700 B.C.) [Christ as Light of the Gentiles/Universality of the Church] "[6] And he said: It is a small thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to convert the dregs of Israel. Behold, I have given thee to be the light of the Gentiles, that thou mayst be my salvation even to the farthest part of the earth. [7] Thus saith the Lord the redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to the soul that is despised, to the nation that is abhorred, to the servant of rulers: Kings shall see, and princes shall rise up, and adore for the Lord's sake, because he is faithful, and for the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee." A self-evident description of the universal spread of the knowledge of God and of His Suffering Servant.

8. (Psa 109:1-4, circa 1000 B.C.) [Son of God is the Lord of David/Priest like Melchizedech] "[1] The Lord said to my Lord: Sit thou at my right hand: Until I make thy enemies thy footstool. [2] The Lord will send forth the sceptre of thy power out of Sion: rule thou in the midst of thy enemies. [3] With thee is the principality in the day of thy strength: in the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star I begot thee. [4] The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech." The Lord proves from this prophesy that the Messiah is to be God, not a mere human king, but the Son of God and the Lord of David. Also, after His Sacrifice, we begin to see here that the Messiah will institute a new and exalted Priesthood, of the order of Melchizedech, Who long ago in Genesis had appeared to Abraham and offered a Sacrifice to God most High under the form of Bread and Wine. Abraham received this great King and Priest with utmost reverence, Who is a figure of Jesus Christ.

7. (Dan 7:13-15, circa 550 B.C.)[Son of Man receives universal dominion from the Father] [13] I beheld therefore in the vision of the night, and lo, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and he came even to the Ancient of days: and they presented him before him. [14] And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed. [15]" Here the wise Prophet Daniel, loved and sought after by kings because of the powerful Spirit of prophesy in him, foretells that all authority in Heaven and on earth will be given to the Son of Man , and all peoples from every tribe and tongue will serve the Son of Man, Who has Power, and Glory (another practical proof of His Divinity and Incarnation), from the Ancient of Days.

6. (Dan 9:25-26, circa 550 B.C.)[Prophesied time of Messianic advent; destruction of Temple] [25] Know thou therefore, and take notice: that from the going forth of the word, to build up Jerusalem again, unto Christ the prince, there shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks: and the street shall be built again, and the walls in straitness of times. [26] And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. This prophesy is cited in the Christmas Liturgy, it requires a little familiarity with the Hebrew Scriptures which speak of 7 year periods as a week. It is mentioned by Josephus and others, and the Jews of Christ's time knew the fulfilment of the time spoken of by the Prophet Daniel was near. It means Christ would have come and been slain within about 483 years (69*7) after Artaxerxes' decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which was around 450 B.C. After this, the Temple would be destroyed, as the Lord also said, and which came about less than 40 years, after He was crucified in Jerusalem under Pontius Pilate. Josephus is also a witness to all these things, that John the Baptist was a Prophet, that St. James/Jacob was martyred out of hatred against Christ, and that also because of this, the Temple was finally destroyed in 70 A.D. at Roman hands.

These should be sufficient proofs, provided a person is seeking the truth and of good will, (1) to show any Jew that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (2) to show any Muslim that Jesus the Christ is truly Divine, and was foretold as such by Prophets whom they accept (like Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon etc) (3) finally, to show any pagan whomsoever that Jesus could only have fulfilled these prophesies if He was truly divine (how could anyone have arranged for Himself to come at the right time, also to die in sacrifice publicly, then have those of every tribe serve Him etc if He were not God?)

[Xavier]

Continued from earlier ...

In Pope St. Pius X's Oath against Modernism, we read, "I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time."

It is hoped that a prayerful consideration of the below will lead our non-Christian friends to see, that the Holy Father is right; and, Jesus Christ prepared the way for His own coming from Heaven, and so is True God.

5. (Dan 2:44-45, circa 550 B.C.) [Divine Origin/Indestructibility of the Catholic Church] "But in the days of those kingdoms, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never by destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever. According as thou sawest, that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and broke in pieces the clay and the iron, and the brass, and the silver, and the gold, the great God hath shewn the king what shall come to pass hereafter, and the dream is true, and the interpretation thereof is faithful. This prophesy receives it fulfilment when Jesus Christ, the God of Heaven, gave the Keys of His Kingdom to St. Peter, to loose and bind on earth. "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." (Matt 16:18-19)

Let us recall the pagan king was so astonished at the powerful Spirit of prophesy in Daniel that he practically worshipped Daniel; because the Prophet did what none of the diviners of Babylon were able to do - he told the king both the dream itself (the king had refused to disclose the dream but asked for someone able to tell both the dream and the interpretation), "Then the Chaldeans answered before the king, and said: There is no man upon earth, that can accomplish thy word, O king; neither doth any king, though great and mighty, ask such a thing of any diviner, or wise man, or Chaldean." (verse 10) and finally, in the end, "Then king Nabuchodonosor fell on his face, and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer in sacrifice to him victims and incense. And the king spoke to Daniel, and said: Verily, your God is the God of gods, and Lord of kings, and a revealer of hidden things: seeing thou couldst discover this secret." (verse 47) The holy Prophet Daniel taught this pagan Nabuchodonosor, "The secret that the king desireth to know, none of the wise men, or the philosophers, or the diviners, or the soothsayers, can declare to the king. But there is a God in heaven that revealeth mysteries" and by degrees led him to believe in the One True God. Later on, the king would confess, "The most high God hath wrought signs and wonders towards me. It hath seemed good to me, therefore, to publish His signs, because they are great: and his wonders, because they are mighty: and his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his power to all generations." (3:99-100)

4. (Gen 49:10, circa 1700 B.C. by the Patriarch Jacob) [Messiah will come before Juda has lost all its authority] "The sceptre shall not be taken away from Juda, nor a ruler from his thigh, till he come that is to be sent, and he shall be the expectation of nations." This prophesy was made by the Patriarch Jacob, grandson of Abraham. Fr. Haydock gives an excellent summary of how both Jews and Christians have understood the Messiah's coming to be foretold in this passage, and we recall that at the time when Our Savior was to be put to death, the Pharisees said, " It is not lawful for us to put any man to death." (Jn 18:31); it is certain, then, that by this time when Pontius Pilate was ruler of Judea, as Tacitus and other Roman historians also record, that Juda had lost its power fully; therefore, it is certain that Messiah has come. That is also why many of the scribes of Jesus' time were eagerly anticipating and expecting at any time the coming of the Messiah. But they did not recall He was to be an atoning Sacrifice first before He came as conquering King; thus, they unfortunately failed to recognize Him; but, it is written, the Jewish Nation will return to Christ and believe in Him before the end.

3. [Gen 3:15, circa 5200 B.C., by God Himself in the Garden of Eden, the Woman by Her Seed will crush the Serpent's Head] "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." Here, a wondrous prophesy that the Messiah would be the Seed of the Woman, already implying He would be God, and born of a Virgin, as Isaias (7:14) and other Prophets would later more explicitly foretell. That by the Messiah and His Mother the serpent and its seed would be crushed and the curse of sin destroyed. Later, partial fulfilments of the same can also be seen in how the Mother of God crushed serpent-worship and infanticide in Guadalupe.

2. [Psa 15:10, 1000 B.C. The Holy One of the Lord will enter Hades, and return] "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt thou give thy holy one to see corruption." This prophesy was cited by St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, in the New Testament, showing it was necessary for the Holy One of the Lord to descend into hell before ascending from the tomb into heaven; the deliverance of the patriarchs from limbo is also thus made known, for the souls of all will be assumed up after the coming of the Messiah to see God face to face. After these and several other exhortations, 3,000 Jews believed in Jesus and were baptized into the Church that first day of Pentecost by the Apostolic preaching. Later on, St. Paul and the other Apostles would adduce these and other proofs, on account of which very many leading Rabbis were converted; even Gamaliel became a Christian.

1. (Mal 1:11, circa 400 B.C.) [Institution of the Holy Sacrifice/Mass in the Universal Church] "For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts." An astonishing prophesy of a universal Sacrifice that has an even more astonishing fulfilment in the Catholic Church. The Fathers point out this Sacrifice (especially after the Temple fell in 70 A.D. and old testament animal sacrifices ceased) is manifestly fulfilled only in the Catholic Church. Fr. Lasance, writing about a 100 years ago, gives a wonderful commentary on this prophesy of Malachias.

There are beside these very simple prophesies in the New Testament, the Mother of God saying "behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed." (Luk 1:48). An amazing prophesy with a more amazing fulfilment in the Catholic Church. Any serious non-Christian or inquirer into Christianity should consider how Mary could have so confidently proclaimed this, and how it indeed it came true, if She were not truly the Virgin Mother of God. Similarly, and equally confidently, the Lord Jesus Christ declares His Gospel will be proclaimed in all the nations, while as yet it was believed in only by few. And that too has come true, as of course it would. "And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations" (Mat 24:14)

“And when the Angelus bell is ringing at noon in New York, the unbloody Sacrifice is being offered up in the islands of the Pacific, where there are generous souls laboring for our dear Lord. And so the bells are ringing on, on, over the waters, and one taper after another catches the light of faith, making glad all the isles of the sea. At two the zealous missionaries of Australia are murmuring with haste, eager for the coming of Our Lords: “Introibo ad altare Dei.” And all the spicy islands of the East catch the sweet sounds, one after another, till at four in the afternoon China proves there are many souls who are worthy of the name of celestial by their rapt devotion at the early rite. Then in Tibet there is many a modest chapel where the missionary distributes the Bread of Life to a crowd of hungry souls.

“At six the altars of Hindustan, where St. Francis Xavier ministered, are arrayed with their flowers and lamps and the sacred vessels, and unwearied priests are hastening to fortify their souls before him Who is their life and their strength. At nine in Siberia, where many a poor Catholic exile from Poland has no other solace from his woes but the foot of the altar and the Bread of Heaven. During the hours when New York is gay with parties and balls and theatrical amusements, the holiest of rites is going on in the Indian Ocean and among the sable tribes of Africa, whose souls are so dear to the Saviour Who once died for all. At eleven in Jerusalem, the Holy City over which Jesus wept, where He wrought so many miracles, where He suffered and offered Himself a sacrifice for the whole world.

“When midnight sounds again in New York, the silver bells are tinkling again in every chancel in Rome. And so it goes on; the divine Host is constantly rising like the sun in its course around the earth. Thus are fulfilled the words of the prophet Malachias [1:11]: ‘From the rising of the sun even to the going down thereof, My name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to My name a clean oblation: for My name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.’”

“Not an instant of time passes that Mass is not offered, and the Host not adored. Talk of an Empire on which the sun never sets, of the British reveille drum ever beating as our planet revolves on its axis and the day chases night around the globe; what is that to the unending oblation of the Catholic Church? What moment is not a priest’s voice uttering ‘Te igitur, clementissime Pater!’ What moment is not counted by the bell which announces the silent and invisible coming of their God to prostrate adorers in some quiet sanctuary, in Europe, or in Asia, or in America, in the Atlantic cities or in the woods of Oregon, in the Alps or on the Andes, on the vast terra firma all along the Meridians or on the scattered islands of the sea?”

[Michael Wilson]

Xavier,
 thanks for posting the above; very good.

[Gardener]

Don’t forget Wisdom 2.

[Quaremerepulisti]

You're simply taking Catholic doctrine, retrofitting it to vague Scriptural passages, calling it "prophecy", and then (circularly) claiming such prophecy "proves" Catholic doctrine.  Then, anyone who doesn't accept your arguments is clearly not seeking the truth or not of good will.

This isn't intellectually rigorous and hardly compelling for an unbeliever, no matter what St. Pius X may have thought about it, or what he strong-armed people into accepting.  You will only accept such passages as prophecy if you have already accepted the Catholic faith.

[Xavier]

Thanks, Gardener. Wisdom 2 is an amazing prophesy; our Protestant friends lack it. Thanks, Michael. It would be great if we could here on SD produce an article or a pdf ebook of some kind with about 100 of these Messianic prophesies, which in every age since the Apostles have helped millions of Jews and pagans to come to Christ.

St. Justin pointed out some of these things to Trypho, and as a result several Jews became Christians. "Tabory concludes, "An examination of the rabbinic evidence… seems to show that in Jerusalem the Jewish paschal lamb was offered in a manner which resembled a crucifixion" ... "For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of a cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, 40). (Pitre, p. 63-4).https://qmbarque.com/2014/04/10/first-century-jews-and-the-paschal-sacrifice-why-lamb-of-god-should-mean-far-more-to-us/ The Lamb was sacrificed on a stake like a Cross! Oh wow!

Dr. Brant Pitre, Catholic convert, highlights other important things about the Paschal Lamb of Sacrifice; Almighty God taught the people of Israel that it is only blood that makes atonement for sin. He showed them by various types that the Lamb of God was one day to atone for sin by a perfect Sacrifice. This is closely related to the Melchizedech Priesthood, that perpetuates this sacrificial offering in every place.

Thus, we see Christ is truly the Paschal Lamb, Who was killed on a stake in a manner resembling crucifixion, and sacrificed on Nisan 14 or Passover, and had none of its bones broken; then, its flesh was given as food to the faithful, that they may have life. Thus Our Lord is Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God. The Messiah would be a great High Priest Whose Priests continue to offer the salvific Victim for all time.

Well, Quare, not everyone is favored with the grace of a mystical experience in order to come to Christ! Let us take just one prophesy to begin with, Isaiah 53.

I can show you Jewish Rabbis themselves that admit Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of the Messiah as Suffering Servant and Lamb of God. There are Four Suffering Servant Prophesies in the Prophet Isaiah and they describe King Messiah's teaching, mission, labors, suffering, death, sacrifice, atonement, intercession for sinners and final Triumph. Chapter 53 in particular has led to innumerable conversions. The Rabbis speak of Moshiach ben Yosef (The Messiah, Son of Joseph! - even the Patriarch Joseph in the old testament is considered a figure of the Messiah - he was thrown into a pit and left for dead, but miraculously raised up to the King's right Hand, and ruled from there as Sovereign equal to Pharoah); other Rabbis speak of Moshiach ben David, a second manifestation of the Messiah they don't fully understand. Sometimes, our friends who are Jews misunderstand that these are not two separate Messiahs but 2 manifestations of the One Messiah: The Suffering Servant Who becomes the Ruling King at the Right Hand of the Father, after He is Resurrected from the Dead.

1. 1st Century Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai states: “The meaning of the words ‘bruised for our iniquities’ [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.“

2. 16th century Moshe Aschich declares, “[our] Rabbis with one voice, accept and affirm the opinion that the Prophet [Isaiah in 53] is speaking of king Messiah."

This can be read in Adolf Neubauer, The Fifty-Third Chapter of Isaiah: According to Jewish Interpreters (New York: KTAV Publishing House, 1969), p. xl.
and Rachmiel Frydland, What the Rabbis Know about the Messiah: A Study of Genealogy and Prophecy (Clarksville, MD: Messianic Jewish Resources International, 2002), p. 53. https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/issues-v20-n01/rabbis-skeptics-and-the-suffering-messiah/

3. Twelfth-century Jewish scholar Ramban (Nachmanides) says the Redeemer is the Messiah:

“Yet he carried our sicknesses, being himself sick and distressed for the transgressions which should have caused sickness and distress in us, and bearing the pains which we ought to have experienced. But we, when we saw him weakened and prostrate, thought that he was stricken, smitten of God. The chastisement of our peace was upon him – for God will correct him; and by his stripes we were healed.“[3]

The mystical Zohar records:

4. “The children of the world are members one of another. When the Holy One desires to give healing to the world, he smites one just man amongst them, and for his sake heals all the rest. Whence do we learn this? From the saying, “‘He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities“‘ (Isaiah 53:5)” (Numbers, Pinchus, 218a).

5. "The 17th century Jewish historian, Raphael Levi, admitted that long ago the rabbis used to read Isaiah 53 in synagogues, but after the chapter caused “arguments and great confusion” the rabbis decided that the simplest thing would be to just take that prophecy out of the Haftarah readings in synagogues. That’s why today when we read Isaiah 52, we stop in the middle of the chapter and the week after we jump straight to Isaiah 54 ...

https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/inescapable-truth-isaiah-53/

"The prayers for Yom Kippur, the ones we all know also relates Isaiah 53 to the Messiah. The prayer added for Yom Kippur by Rabbi Eliezer around the time of the seventh century: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

[Lynne]

I found this...

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/OTeSources/23a-Prophets/Text/Books/Delitsch-MessianicProphecies/Delistch-MessianicProphecies.pdf

[Quaremerepulisti]

Well, Quare, not everyone is favored with the grace of a mystical experience in order to come to Christ! Let us take just one prophesy to begin with, Isaiah 53.

I can show you Jewish Rabbis themselves that admit Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of the Messiah as Suffering Servant and Lamb of God.

I'm sure you can.  So what?

[Michael Wilson]

Quare,
 I once had a discussion with an agnostic about the Daniel prophecy; I don't recall him dismissing it as circular reasoning or stating that it wasn't significant; maybe he was on his way to the faith.

[Quaremerepulisti]

Quare,
 I once had a discussion with an agnostic about the Daniel prophecy; I don't recall him dismissing it as circular reasoning or stating that it wasn't significant; maybe he was on his way to the faith.

The coming of the Messiah was (and is) a Jewish belief.  Therefore it isn't surprising that some Jews would have written about it.

Attempting to use that as proof that the Messiah actually did come is ridiculous.

[Michael Wilson]

I don't follow your logic.  If someone admits that the Jewish prophecies are valid, then they are very useful to prove that the Messiah has actually come or not. In the case of the Daniel prophecy, the time fits pretty closely (depending on the date of Cyrus' reign) with the appearance of Our Lord. It can also be used to exclude a date latter than say a very short time span, within the first C.
The same for the prediction by one of the latter prophets, that the Messiah would walk in the second temple. this would exclude the arrival after the destruction of said temple in 70 A.D.

[Quaremerepulisti]

I don't follow your logic.  If someone admits that the Jewish prophecies are valid, then they are very useful to prove that the Messiah has actually come or not.

Yeah, but there's that "if".  One won't accept the Jewish prophecies as valid unless he first accepts that the Messiah has come, based on other things besides those prophecies.

The logic is that a proposed prophecy cannot be proof of something if knowledge of that very something is necessary to prove the validity of the prophecy.  One has to come epistemologically before the other.

In the case of the Daniel prophecy, the time fits pretty closely (depending on the date of Cyrus' reign) with the appearance of Our Lord. It can also be used to exclude a date latter than say a very short time span, within the first C.
The same for the prediction by one of the latter prophets, that the Messiah would walk in the second temple. this would exclude the arrival after the destruction of said temple in 70 A.D.

But note that you're already accepting Our Lord did appear at that time and using that to argue the validity of the prophecy.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I do the same.

As for the timeline, the unbeliever will say that of course the "Jesus myth" was concocted later on to match the timeline of the prophecies, and so the match of the timeline in the so-called "prophecies" proves nothing.  He will also point out that the Isaiah prophecy has it that "he will open not his mouth" when He clearly did speak.  You have to argue, based on other evidence besides the prophecies, that Jesus really is the Messiah.  Now, if other evidence is needed, the prophecies are not proof in and of themselves.

[Michael Wilson]

Quare,
true as far as the agnostic or atheist; but the Jew has an inextricable dilemma of explaining how the Jesus or somebody like the promised Messiah has not arrived already. From what I have read, this problem has lead most Jews to abandon the idea of a personal Messiah, and substituted it for a "Messianic era".
 

[Kreuzritter]

You're simply taking Catholic doctrine, retrofitting it to vague Scriptural passages, calling it "prophecy", and then (circularly) claiming such prophecy "proves" Catholic doctrine.  Then, anyone who doesn't accept your arguments is clearly not seeking the truth or not of good will.

This isn't intellectually rigorous and hardly compelling for an unbeliever, no matter what St. Pius X may have thought about it, or what he strong-armed people into accepting.  You will only accept such passages as prophecy if you have already accepted the Catholic faith.

...

Yeah, but there's that "if".  One won't accept the Jewish prophecies as valid unless he first accepts that the Messiah has come, based on other things besides those prophecies.

The logic is that a proposed prophecy cannot be proof of something if knowledge of that very something is necessary to prove the validity of the prophecy.  One has to come epistemologically before the other.

My, my, you sophist

You will only accept such passages as prophecy if you have already accepted the Catholic faith - you and whose crystal ball, Mr. armchair cognitive psychologist? I see you've mastered that, too, alongside your intensive studies in mechanics, chemistry, paleontology, genetics and theology. Did I miss any area of expertise?

One can accept the Jewish prophecies as accurate from the the conviction, based in a rational investigation and judgment, that the historical person Jesus of Nazareth existed and actually met their conditions after they had been written, provided one doesn't dismiss a priori the possibility of prophecy like a good little "metaphysical naturalist". Messianic arguments have, in fact, convinced Jews and others and springboarded conversions to at least the rudiments of the creeds, so you're simply wrong, and that's that. Unfortunately, fundamentalist Evangelicals seem to be better at it these days than Catholics, since they haven't embraced the pseudoscience of German Biblical criticism and dismissed supernaturalism as impolite for public conversation, like most Catholics.

Don't you have somewhere to be? Like a meeting at the local Humanist Society?

[Xavier]

As we prepare to celebrate Christmas, here's a reference to Daniel's prophesy in the Christmas Liturgy, "in the 65th week according to the prophecy of Daniel, in the 194th Olympiad, in the 752nd from the foundation of the city of Rome, in the 42nd year of the reign of the Emperor Octavian Augustus, in the 6th age of the world, while the whole earth was at peace, Jesus Christ, Himself Eternal God and Son of the Eternal Father, being pleased to hallow the world by His most gracious coming, having been conceived of the Holy Ghost, and when nine months were passed after His conception, [all kneel down] was born of the Virgin Mary at Bethlehem of Juda made Man, Our Lord Jesus Christ was born according to the flesh." https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/spanning-east-and-west-christmas-liturgy

 There's another thread for the historical evidence that Kreuz and Quare are discussing. Josephus, Tacitus and many others confirm the Gospel biographies that tell us Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate. Oxford scholars wrote an article a while ago dating the crucifixion, with historical and even astronomical evidence (Pilate's term was around 26 to 36 A.D. so that already narrows it down) to 33 A.D., Nisan 14 - or April 3rd in our Christian Calendar.

Prophesy, as was said, only presupposes two basic historical truths like (1) Jesus Christ was crucified under Pilate around A.D. 33 (A.D. 30 is the only other suggested date within Pilate's term, but it wouldn't matter here), and (2) the Old Testament prophecies were recorded well into the B.C. era long before Christ; these are two historical facts, they are almost universally admitted by historians, and they can be proved historically. If anyone wants to discuss that, please go to the "Secular testimonies that Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate" thread. Great Roman historians like Tacitus, the official biographer of the Roman emperors, confirm that the leader of the Christians, Christus, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when Tiberius was emperor. We know when Pilate was procurator and Tiberius was emperor and the rest is not that hard at all to date historically. Secularist historians have said, "That Jesus was crucified is as certain as anything historical can ever be". If therefore anything at all in history is certain, it is certain Jesus died under Pontius Pilate.

Jesus Himself cited the Psalm to the Pharisees and asked them why David called the Messiah Lord? They could not answer. St. Paul, a Pharisee as we know before his conversion, and learned in the law, used to always begin preaching in the Synagogues, from the Prophets. And no one was able to answer him, and very many converted. We have evidence Gamaliel himself became a Christian.

It's estimated something like 5/6ths of the Jews in the Roman empire became Christian in a few hundred years after Christ. The evidence from prophesy is very strong. Often, it even convinced pagans, that the God Who did these things had both sent the Prophets and become Incarnate in Our Lord Jesus Christ.

11. Wis 2:12-21 [Trials and Traps set for the Just Son of God; His betrayal, death and Final Vindication] "[12] Let us therefore lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn, and he is contrary to our doings, and upbraideth us with transgressions of the law, and divulgeth against us the sins of our way of life. [13] He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God. [14] He is become a censurer of our thoughts. [15] He is grievous unto us, even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, and his ways are very different.[16] We are esteemed by him as triflers, and he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness, and he preferreth the latter end of the just, and glorieth that he hath God for his father. [17] Let us see then if his words be true, and let us prove what shall happen to him, and we shall know what his end shall be. [18] For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. [19] Let us examine him by outrages and tortures, that we may know his meekness and try his patience. [20] Let us condemn him to a most shameful death: for there shall be respect had unto him by his words. [21] These things they thought, and were deceived: for their own malice blinded them.

12. Isa 59:19-21 (The Redeemer comes to Zion! Great Grace and forgiveness of sins in the New Covenant) "[19] And they from the west, shall fear the name of the Lord: and they from the rising of the sun, his glory: when he shall come as a violent stream, which the spirit of the Lord driveth on: [20] And there shall come a, redeemer to Sion, and to them that return from iniquity in Jacob, saith the Lord.[21] This is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: My spirit that is in thee, and my words that I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever." (This is cited in Vatican I, as proof of the perpetual guidance of the Holy Spirit promised to the Church - also confirmed expressly by Christ Our Lord; this promise proves the old law is not perpetual, but to be replaced by a new and everlasting covenant)

13. Jer 31:31-34 (God confirms His promise of a New Covenant, and abundant forgiveness of sins)[31] Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: [32] Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord. [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord: I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart: and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34] And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: Know the Lord: for all shall know me from the least of them even to the greatest, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

14. Psa 44:7-8 (The Redeemer is true God, and annointed (the word for Christ literally means Annointed One) a Great King, Perfect in Beauty)  [7] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. [8] Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

15. Mic 5:2 (Christ is God and will be born in Bethlehem) [2] AND THOU, BETHLEHEM Ephrata, art a little one among the thousands of Juda: out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity.

The odds of any individual other than Jesus Christ ever fulfilling even a few of these prophesies are vanishingly low. Someone who lived barely 50 years after or before Him would not have been able to. No mere man would willingly die on a Cross like a sacrificed lamb, and then hope to be worshiped as God by people of all nations, nor could that ever have come about. The “coincidences” are just too great – just like the “coincidences” in God’s fine-tuning and creation of the universe. And so, as the Church rightly teaches God’s existence is known and can be demonstrated from nature and creation, deduced from the effects visible, so also Christ’s divine acts, His miracles and His fulfilment of prophesy, and His own prophesies – of the destruction of Jerusalem and the universal spread of Christianity – can be known to be true through their effects, and therefore seen to be signs of His divine mission. The prophecies cited are like “fingerprints” of the Messiah. It would be almost impossible for anyone else to fulfil them. In fact, no one in recorded history ever has, or ever will. Only Jesus Christ has. He is the Son of God and the promised Saviour of the human race.