Author Topic: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger  (Read 4353 times)

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #90 on: December 01, 2018, 06:16:16 PM »
Can we get past this?

Even YECs who adhere to a literal interpretation of Noah's Ark admit that new species (as biology defines the term) can arise - there simply wouldn't be enough room on the Ark for all extant species today.  Instead, they say Noah took aboard two of each "kind" - and they then reproduced according to their "kind" but their kind could produce new species.  It's only the impossibility of two of the same kind producing a different kind.  Like, for instance, dogs and wolves or cats and tigers.

So I don't see Fr. R's argument going anywhere - anyone could argue in response that whole animal kingdom is simply all the same "kind" and thus evolution is not a violation of "like begets like".
 

Offline Habitual_Ritual

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #91 on: December 01, 2018, 06:18:11 PM »
(as biology defines the term)

But does it though? It's sounding like it doesn't. Not in any sense that can be used empirically anyway.
" There exists now an enormous religious ignorance. In the times since the Council it is evident we have failed to pass on the content of the Faith.”

(Pope Benedict XVI speaking in October 2002.)
 

Offline TomD

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #92 on: December 01, 2018, 06:20:19 PM »
More than once you have confirmed the vague nature of, and unwillingness of science to settle on a definition for species, beyond some vagaries surrounding 'sciences' rejection of a fixed (rigid) definition for species. There is no basis for this rejection in empirical science as best as I can determine. It is pure ideology. This conversation has reached an apogee and an impasse; Father uses an erroneous definition of a term that refuses to be defined.

We are done

More than once you have confirmed that you are simply unwilling to address the charge of equivocation. The charge of equivocation stands even if you think "evolution is dumb" and even if you think modern biology's collection of definitions for "species" are not at all useful. Biology today uses different definitions of species because there is debate over which is the most useful for classifying organisms. What these definitions have in common is that they all would be different from Father's understanding of "species." That is something you admit. And it is the very basis for my charge of equivocation. A charge which you are unwilling to address, essentially conceding that you cannot address it.
 

Offline Habitual_Ritual

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #93 on: December 01, 2018, 06:21:49 PM »
I am going to drink fine Bourbon and watch a movie now.
" There exists now an enormous religious ignorance. In the times since the Council it is evident we have failed to pass on the content of the Faith.”

(Pope Benedict XVI speaking in October 2002.)
 
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Offline TomD

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #94 on: December 01, 2018, 06:40:58 PM »
I am going to drink fine Bourbon and watch a movie now.

Fair enough, enjoy
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #95 on: December 01, 2018, 09:25:11 PM »

Evolution, as a philosophy of nature, cannot be critiqued due to the ever evolving and ever new modalities of thought that seem to pop up with some regularity when it comes to key definitions.

Excellent summary.
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #96 on: December 02, 2018, 09:14:35 AM »
There are no ring species

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2014/07/16/there-are-no-ring-species/

What Jerry Coyne is pointing out here, however, is that the salamanders on either end of the ring are separate species, and that one evolved from the other.  He simply doesn't think they're an example of true "ring species" because DNA modelling now shows that the salamanders do appear at certain parts to have gotten geographically isolated from one another, to the extent where the ring would've been broken.  (This inconvenient finding also undercuts the allegation that evolution is a hook-nosed conspiracy, for why would Jerry Coyne, an atheist evolutionist Jew, be interested in crippling his own cause?)

Anyway, if DNA modelling is the basis for proof that there are no true extant ring species, it should also be accepted as the basis for proving that the biblical flood could not have occurred, since DNA modelling shows that the present genetic diversity of humans could not have arisen from a homogeneous population of only eight persons a mere five thousand years ago.  The molecular clock would need tens of thousands of years to get from Shem, Ham, Japheth, and their wives to the current dispersal of Zulus, Scandinavians, Maori, Japanese, Aztecs, &c.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 10:54:10 AM by Pon de Replay »
 

Offline Habitual_Ritual

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #97 on: December 02, 2018, 11:56:59 AM »
It appears that we are more similar than diverse in terms of our genetics, and the diversity of races today is a result of a loss of genetic material, spiraling out geographically from a smaller group of antecedents.

Quote
Both teams’ analyses confirm the genetic similarities that tie together the human family: the world’s groups are far more similar to each other than different, for example, and most people have genetic ancestry tracing back to more than one continent. “A huge amount of our genomes are the same across the world

https://www.nature.com/news/2008/080221/full/news.2008.614.html
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 11:59:48 AM by Habitual_Ritual »
" There exists now an enormous religious ignorance. In the times since the Council it is evident we have failed to pass on the content of the Faith.”

(Pope Benedict XVI speaking in October 2002.)
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #98 on: December 02, 2018, 01:21:01 PM »
Correct.  The differences between the races are only a small portion of the genome, but even that difference requires a lot more than five thousand years to account for the diversity.  This is why DNA modelling puts Y-chromosomal Adam at about 200,000 years ago.  Whereas in the creationist scheme, Noah would be the Y-chromosomal MRCA, and the diversity would've had to have come from the eight Semites on the ark, something viewed as simply not possible from the modelling.

So DNA-modelling is a double-edged sword if you want to use it to disprove true ring species, because it also disproves a global flood 5kya and a first pair 7kya (see your own source: How big was the human population bottleneck? Another staple of theology refuted).


« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 04:03:30 PM by Pon de Replay »
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #99 on: December 02, 2018, 05:56:24 PM »
I just watched the video, and I'm wondering about the principle of economy and the principle of integral goodness. Are either of these two principles legitimate?

The principle of economy just sounds like Ockham's razor, which is false. Sometimes there are multiple causes at work bringing about a single effect, even when it can be conceived that that effect could be brought about by just a single cause.

The principle of integral goodness, if I understand what he's saying, also sounds false. Because our intuition indicates that a defective thing is not entirely evil on account of its defect; rather, the defective thing is good insofar as it is a thing and evil insofar as it is defective.
edit - Or is he saying that God cannot imperfectly instantiate a thing? The thing must start out perfect, and then something else must come along later and take away the thing's perfection?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 06:58:00 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #100 on: December 03, 2018, 08:56:47 AM »
OP. Thanks for this. Great video. Father also has a book on the subject worth reading, https://www.amazon.com/Metaphysics-Evolution-Fr-Chad-Ripperger/dp/3848216256

And St. Kolbe's centre has online articles from that work. http://kolbecenter.org/metaphysical-impossibility-human-evolution-chad-ripperger-catholic-creation/

Father's excellent point about how Freemasonry has promoted evolution to undermine Christianity is also worth considering. In another thread, we saw the Communists did the same. The fact is atheists, agnostics, anti-Christians love this evolution of theirs.

Why is that? And What is evolution, at its core? Is it perhaps a legitimate scientific theory, even if unproven or disproven? No, not at all. Evolution is fundamentally a heathen religion! Everything else - Almighty God Himself and the fact of His special creation - is unnecessary and superfluous at worst to the adherents of this pagan sect. The core dogma of evolution is that monkeys are the gods and creators who fathered and gave birth to us!

And so "theistic evolution" is like "theistic atheism" and "Christian evolution" is like Christian paganism - there is no such thing. Even if all who hold such an opinion are not yet aware of it, their opinion tends logically toward unbelief and error; atheists promote "theistic evolution" when they cannot directly make Christians atheists in one step. Evolution, in the macroevolutionary sense defined by Fr. R, of one species allegedly producing a substantially different species, is fundamentally an atheistic theory and Christians should reject it.

1. Btw, Tom,what you wrote earlier is an almost word for word violation of the law of transitivity (and even of plain logic). If A and B, C and D, and D and E are of the same species, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE that E be of a different species to A, as you claimed: " Every offspring is of the same species as its parents. Every individual remains the same species throughout its entire life. But it doesn't follow then that no new species can arise. It's like this: A gives birth to B and B to C and C to D and D to E. A is the same species as B and B is the same as C and C is the same as D and D is the same species as E. However, E is not the same species as A"

2. But why beat around fhe bush any longer, let's look at the concrete example of a species A allegedly being parent to a different species E. Let species E be human beings. What was species A? And what are our alleged sister species(Chimps, gorillas etc?) that also allegedly descended from this (mythical) missing common ancestor that curiously is still missing?

"There was once an animal that was an ancestor to both humans and apes. But what was it like?" http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170517-we-have-still-not-found-the-missing-link-between-us-and-apes

If you won't read books written by Creation Scientists, I suggest Prof. Michael Denton's "Evolution: A theory in crisis" where he reviews the scientific evidence and shows just how bad the intermediate fossil issue is for Darwinism. There should have been scores more of intermediates.

3. Evolutionists have tried to lie to and deceive the scientific community that pretended "ape-men" existed in the past, and these have now been proven and are almost universally admitted to be (deliberate?) frauds.

"Stories claiming that fossils of primitive, apelike men have been found are overstated.c
Since 1953, it has been universally acknowledged that Piltdown “man” was a hoax, yet Piltdown “man” was in textbooks for more than 40 years.d
Before 1977, evidence for Ramapithecus was a mere handful of teeth and jaw fragments. We now know these fragments were pieced together incorrectly by Louis Leakeye and others into a form resembling part of the human jaw.f Ramapithecus was just an ape.g  [See Figure 13.]
The only remains of Nebraska “man” turned out to be a single toothh—of a pig.  [See Figure 14.]
Forty years after he discovered Java “man,” Eugene Dubois conceded that it was not a man, but was similar to a large gibbon (an ape). In citing evidence to support this new conclusion, Dubois admitted that he had withheld parts of four other thigh bones of apes found in the same area.i"

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/LifeSciences30.html
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Offline TomD

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2018, 10:23:38 AM »


Quote
Why is that? And What is evolution, at its core? Is it perhaps a legitimate scientific theory, even if unproven or disproven? No, not at all. Evolution is fundamentally a heathen religion! Everything else - Almighty God Himself and the fact of His special creation - is unnecessary and superfluous at worst to the adherents of this pagan sect.

Okay. So if evolution is really a heathen religion, someone should have told Pope Pius XII when he taught that Catholics may inquire into the theory in Humani Generis. Moreover, someone should have told the authors of any number of the great theological manuals of the early 20th century, for instance Dr. Ludwig Ott, or the authors of the Catholic Encyclopedia, that evolution was a "pagan sect" for these theologians explicitly teach it is compatible with Catholic doctrine. Likewise with John Henry Newman, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI, and many others.

And to be clear, are you suggesting that belief in evolution is a mortal sin?

 
Quote
The core dogma of evolution is that monkeys are the gods and creators who fathered and gave birth to us!

This is frankly absurd. The idea that humans and modern day apes share a common ancestor dos not mean that "monkeys are gods and creators." For one, this completely ignores what "creator" means according to traditional Catholic theology and philosophy. For if you are correct in describing evolution as teaching that our ancestors are our "gods and creators" then we might as well say our parents are our "gods and creators." Evolution is not the problem, rather, the fact that we weren't all specially created is the problem.

Also, you act as though there is something absurd to the idea that human bodies could have arisen from preexisting life. But the Book of Genesis of course teaches that our bodies arose from preexisting matter (albeit it implies the matter is non-living). Does this mean that Genesis teaches "dust" is our god and creator?

Quote
And so "theistic evolution" is like "theistic atheism" and "Christian evolution" is like Christian paganism - there is no such thing. Even if all who hold such an opinion are not yet aware of it, their opinion tends logically toward unbelief and error; atheists promote "theistic evolution" when they cannot directly make Christians atheists in one step.

I actually think special creation, particularly of the young earth variety leads to atheism. Militant atheists in fact are much more likely to promote young earth creationism as the face of Christianity in order to show how foolish Christian faith is. As Augustine says "Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books" (the whole quote is worth the read as it is relevant here. It can be found in Literal meaning of Genesis 1:19:39.


Quote
1. Btw, Tom,what you wrote earlier is an almost word for word violation of the law of transitivity (and even of plain logic). If A and B, C and D, and D and E are of the same species, it is logically IMPOSSIBLE that E be of a different species to A, as you claimed: " Every offspring is of the same species as its parents. Every individual remains the same species throughout its entire life. But it doesn't follow then that no new species can arise. It's like this: A gives birth to B and B to C and C to D and D to E. A is the same species as B and B is the same as C and C is the same as D and D is the same species as E. However, E is not the same species as A"

It would be a violation in a law of logic if you treat species like "equivalence classes" which is what I have been saying the whole time. Now if you simply insist that I am violating logic, you are begging the question and tacitly assuming an understanding of species which is at odds with how modern biology treats species. And as I have said earlier on this thread, fine if you want to use "species" in your own way, and fine if you think that way is superior. But then you cannot criticize the claims biologists make in their terms by using logic based in the way you are defining your terms. That is equivocation.


Quote
2. But why beat around fhe bush any longer, let's look at the concrete example of a species A allegedly being parent to a different species E. Let species E be human beings. What was species A? And what are our alleged sister species(Chimps, gorillas etc?) that also allegedly descended from this (mythical) missing common ancestor that curiously is still missing?

A google search will yield numerous results from fossils of alleged ancestors to modern humans, for instance, Australopithecus. A google search will also yield results from fossils of many other species. You can challenge any individual fossil claim, but the fossil evidence when taken in totality comes out strongly against special creation (and the evidence against a young earth in particular is, I would say, as conclusive science can be on a topic. But this undermines the literal interpretation of Genesis in its own right).
 

Offline Xavier

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #102 on: December 03, 2018, 11:01:16 AM »
Quote
if evolution is really a heathen religion

That would explain why a provincial council approved by Pope Pius IX censured it. "The Magisterium Teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X

Pius IX. The year after the publication of Darwin’s evolution thesis, the Provincial Council of Cologne issued the following canon, which was approved by Pope Pius IX:

“Our first parents were immediately created by God (Gen.2.7). Therefore we declare as quite contrary to Holy Scripture and the Faith the opinion of those who dare to assert that man, in respect of the body, is derived by spontaneous transformation from an imperfect nature, which improved continually until it reached the present human state.” [10] http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html

The article above also produces much other theological proof that evolution can never be part of the deposit of faith. It is currently a tolerated opinion but it will be condemned by the Magisterium one day. How will you react if the Church were to dogmatically assure you that evolution is false? "Addendum

Rev. Father Brian Harrison, in an in-depth theological treatise, “Did Woman Evolve from Beasts?” (inter alia) shows that:

(a) as early as 3 February, 557, in an epistle to King Childebert I and later in an epistle, “Vas Electionis”, addressed to the whole Church, Pope Pelagius I taught that Adam and Eve “were not born of other parents, but were created: one from the earth and the other from the side of man” (see p. 8); and

(b) in 1312, the Council of Vienne not only affirmed the doctrine of the special creation of Eve from Adam’s side but also taught that it was a profound and beautiful foreshadowing of the mystical foundation of the Church, the immaculate Spouse of the Church, whereby it prefigured the water and blood, symbols of the principal sacraments, that flowed from the side of Christ at Calvary. See pp.8/9. (Copies of this article, sections 1 and 2, can be accessed on the website of the Roman Theological Forum, rtforum org , “Living Tradition” Numbers 97 and 98.)

These traditional papal teachings based upon Divine Revelation, as they are, together with similar teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X (supra), surely affirm, without any shadow of doubt, that the creation of our first parents as described in Genesis, Chapter 2, is literally and historically true and therefore forms part of the deposit of faith. It follows then that this doctrine of creation can never be replaced by the “new doctrine” of an evolutionary creation."

Btw, St. Augustine and all the Fathers believed in special creation. He is speaking of advancing erroneous private opinions as if they were de fide.

That evolution leads to paganism is not just speculation, it has been observed in Christian society. A creation science book in the 1920s (that uncovered the Piltdown man fraud 3 decades before evolutionists caught up) warned of this, "So baneful has been the effect of teaching evolution as a proven hypothesis, that multitudes have been led into infidelity and atheism ... So pernicious is this doctrine of evolution that more than one-half of the professors who teach it and kindred subjects, are infidels and atheists and farther from God than the ignorant heathen"

It has proven prescient. See the other thread where this was discussed.
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=20429.msg450284#msg450284

God created man supernaturally from the earth. Evolutionists want to exclude the supernatural. They claim apes in natural reproduction gave rise to man.

Re: there is no possible definition of species wherein it would be true "species A and species B are the same, species B and species C are the same, but species A and species C are Not the same". None at all.

I recommend you read Prof. Denton on fossil record disproofs of evolution: a snippet -
Quote
The  overall  picture  of  life  on  Earth  today  is  so  discontinuous,  the  gaps between the different types so obvious, that, as Steven Stanley reminds us in his recent book Macroevolution, if our knowledge of biology was restricted to those species presently existing on Earth, "we might wonder whether the doctrine  of  evolution  would  qualify  as  anything  more  than  an  outrageous hypothesis."1  Without  intermediates  or  transitional  forms  to  bridge  the enormous gaps which separate existing species and groups of organisms, the concept of evolution could never be taken seriously as a scientific hypothesis ...

Curiously,   the   problem   is   compounded   by   the   fact   that   the   earliest representatives of most of the major invertebrate phyla appear in the fossil record  over  a  relatively  short  space  of  geological  time,  about  six  hundred million years ago in the Cambrian era. The strata lain down over the hundreds of  millions  of  years  before  the  Cambrian  era,  which  might  have  contained the connecting links between the major phyla, are almost completely empty of animal fossils. If transitional types between the major phyla ever existed then  it  is  in  these  pre-Cambrian  strata  that  their  fossils  should  be  found ...
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Offline TomD

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #103 on: December 03, 2018, 12:06:00 PM »
Quote
if evolution is really a heathen religion

That would explain why a provincial council approved by Pope Pius IX censured it. "The Magisterium Teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X

Pius IX. The year after the publication of Darwin’s evolution thesis, the Provincial Council of Cologne issued the following canon, which was approved by Pope Pius IX:

“Our first parents were immediately created by God (Gen.2.7). Therefore we declare as quite contrary to Holy Scripture and the Faith the opinion of those who dare to assert that man, in respect of the body, is derived by spontaneous transformation from an imperfect nature, which improved continually until it reached the present human state.” [10] http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html

The article above also produces much other theological proof that evolution can never be part of the deposit of faith. It is currently a tolerated opinion but it will be condemned by the Magisterium one day. How will you react if the Church were to dogmatically assure you that evolution is false? "Addendum

Rev. Father Brian Harrison, in an in-depth theological treatise, “Did Woman Evolve from Beasts?” (inter alia) shows that:

(a) as early as 3 February, 557, in an epistle to King Childebert I and later in an epistle, “Vas Electionis”, addressed to the whole Church, Pope Pelagius I taught that Adam and Eve “were not born of other parents, but were created: one from the earth and the other from the side of man” (see p. 8); and

(b) in 1312, the Council of Vienne not only affirmed the doctrine of the special creation of Eve from Adam’s side but also taught that it was a profound and beautiful foreshadowing of the mystical foundation of the Church, the immaculate Spouse of the Church, whereby it prefigured the water and blood, symbols of the principal sacraments, that flowed from the side of Christ at Calvary. See pp.8/9. (Copies of this article, sections 1 and 2, can be accessed on the website of the Roman Theological Forum, rtforum org , “Living Tradition” Numbers 97 and 98.)

These traditional papal teachings based upon Divine Revelation, as they are, together with similar teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X (supra), surely affirm, without any shadow of doubt, that the creation of our first parents as described in Genesis, Chapter 2, is literally and historically true and therefore forms part of the deposit of faith. It follows then that this doctrine of creation can never be replaced by the “new doctrine” of an evolutionary creation."

Btw, St. Augustine and all the Fathers believed in special creation. He is speaking of advancing erroneous private opinions as if they were de fide.

That evolution leads to paganism is not just speculation, it has been observed in Christian society. A creation science book in the 1920s (that uncovered the Piltdown man fraud 3 decades before evolutionists caught up) warned of this, "So baneful has been the effect of teaching evolution as a proven hypothesis, that multitudes have been led into infidelity and atheism ... So pernicious is this doctrine of evolution that more than one-half of the professors who teach it and kindred subjects, are infidels and atheists and farther from God than the ignorant heathen"

It has proven prescient. See the other thread where this was discussed.
https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=20429.msg450284#msg450284

God created man supernaturally from the earth. Evolutionists want to exclude the supernatural. They claim apes in natural reproduction gave rise to man.

Re: there is no possible definition of species wherein it would be true "species A and species B are the same, species B and species C are the same, but species A and species C are Not the same". None at all.

I recommend you read Prof. Denton on fossil record disproofs of evolution: a snippet -
Quote
The  overall  picture  of  life  on  Earth  today  is  so  discontinuous,  the  gaps between the different types so obvious, that, as Steven Stanley reminds us in his recent book Macroevolution, if our knowledge of biology was restricted to those species presently existing on Earth, "we might wonder whether the doctrine  of  evolution  would  qualify  as  anything  more  than  an  outrageous hypothesis."1  Without  intermediates  or  transitional  forms  to  bridge  the enormous gaps which separate existing species and groups of organisms, the concept of evolution could never be taken seriously as a scientific hypothesis ...

Curiously,   the   problem   is   compounded   by   the   fact   that   the   earliest representatives of most of the major invertebrate phyla appear in the fossil record  over  a  relatively  short  space  of  geological  time,  about  six  hundred million years ago in the Cambrian era. The strata lain down over the hundreds of  millions  of  years  before  the  Cambrian  era,  which  might  have  contained the connecting links between the major phyla, are almost completely empty of animal fossils. If transitional types between the major phyla ever existed then  it  is  in  these  pre-Cambrian  strata  that  their  fossils  should  be  found ...

So you only address some of my points and then you bring up some new ones. So I will paraphrase my original points and number them for clarity.

(1) In response to your suggestion that evolution is a "pagan sect" and a "heathen religion" I point out that there are many respectable authors who either believe evolution happened or at least teach that it is compatible with the Catholic faith. Three of these examples are Popes, one a saint, one a blessed, and two are authors of two of the most important theological works in the early 20th century. In the most authoritative statement on evolution by the Church, Pope Pius XII explicitly permits inquiry into evolution, a fact that would be astonishing if you are correct in thinking evolution is a "pagan sect." You do not respond to this point, you only divert the conversation to different writings which attempt to show evolution is incompatible with the faith. I will address your points below.

(2) I ask: is evolution a mortal sin? You did not address this

(3) I point out that your comment on evolution entailing monkeys are "our god and creator" is absurd. For one, it completely misses the mark on Catholic theology regarding creation because it fails to distinguish between God's primary causality and creatures secondary causality. Moreover, it would result in the nonsensical conclusion that belief in our own parents would make them out to be "our god and creator." This point you do not address either.

(4) I state my disagreement regarding evolution leading to atheism and give a reason for it. I also reference Augustine who is arguing that ignorance of science, and then pontificating about these matters, does incredible damage to the faith. I mention this because I think it is special creation, specifically of the young earth variety, that is most harmful to the faith.

You do respond to this. You quote a work from the 1920s which argues that teaching evolution as more than a hypothesis has led to atheism and, as far as I can tell from the quote you provide, its only evidence is the numbers of professors who teach it who are atheists. But this response is inadequate. First, it is from the 20s. Since whether or not evolution is responsible for atheism is a matter of sociology, a contemporary work would be much more suitable as it is more up to date in its data (since we have 100 years of changing beliefs since then) and in its methods. Second, an argument from authority here will not suffice. The work you quote is only as good as the evidence it provides. And the only bit of evidence it provides in the quote you give is very weak (I admittedly do not know if it attempts to give other evidence). Third, the book is not an unbiased research study on the effects of belief in evolution. Rather, it is a work, written from an anti evolution perspective. This does not mean its wrong, but the bias must be recognized. And finally, even if you are right in thinking that belief in evolution leads to atheism, it does not follow that this belief per se leads there. It is entirely possible that belief in evolution leads to irreligion because of how many Christians claim that special creationism of the faith rather than theological opinion.

I disagree with your take on Augustine being a creationist. But even so, the quote I provided was simply meant to point out that ignorance of science can be detrimental to the faith, and I was applying this to our discussion since you think that belief in evolution is detrimental to the faith. I think it may be the other way around for the reasons found in Augustine's quote.

(5) I affirm it would be no violation in the laws of logic. You say that there "is no possible definition" in which my scenario is true. This is not the case, see the definition of "species" I provided earlier in this thread. In comment 11 I explain how this definition would apply to the A-B-C-D-E scenario. What I describe there is certainly a possible definition of species and thus a counterexample to your claim. Now, you can, as others have, dispute the science of that scenario or correctly point out that even biology does not agree on the definition I provide in that comment. But those would be red herrings. What matters is that there is in fact a logically possible definition of species such that my original comment can be true. It is therefore no violation of logic.

(6) I point out there is in fact a fossil record. You provide a reference to the work of one scientist in response. But notice first, that at least in the quote you provide, he doesn't deny the existence of a fossil record. He just argues that it is inadequate for a variety of reasons. Second, there are many other respectable scientists who would disagree with his conclusions. So that is just one expert compared to others.

I will respond to the new points you raise in my next comment below.
 

Offline TomD

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Re: Errors of Theistic Evolution ~ Fr Ripperger
« Reply #104 on: December 03, 2018, 12:17:03 PM »
(7) You reference various other magisterial texts that you think imply evolution is false. But first, even if you are right in giving these some authority, it does not follow that evolution is heretical or a "pagan sect" which you originally claimed. Second, the evidence you provide is rather weak in itself. And third, it stands against a more authoritative consensus of theologians, even before Vatican II, as well as the official teaching of Pope Pius XII.

Re: why I think the evidence is weak: you quote a local German council that was "approved" by the Pope. That would be similar to me quoting a USCCB that got Vatican approval. Fine, we should respectfully listen to it. But a local German council from 150 years ago that came before tons of theological and scientific research on this topic really doesn't hold much water.

The other evidence you site, from Father Harrison, is limited as well. Those quotes come well before evolution was even being addressed. And they teach that man was created from the earth, which everyone affirms. The question is whether or not the immediate precursor to man was inanimate dust or a living thing. The Church didn't address this before Darwin and to site documents that weren't even considering this question is of limited use in this regard. Moreover, some of what Father sites is a reference to Eve's special creation from the rib of Adam. Even if I were to admit that she was specially created, the theory of evolution in general, and even for humans in particular, remains largely in force.

(8) You ask how will I react if the Church dogmatically condemns evolution. Well I believe the teachings of the Church so I would accept this. But I am also certain that this will never happen since the evidence against young earth special creation (and even special creation at all) is very strong and I believe truth cannot contradict truth

(9) You say "God created man supernaturally from the earth. Evolutionists want to exclude the supernatural. They claim apes in natural reproduction gave rise to man." If by "evolutionists" you mean anyone who accepts the theory, then it is false to say we all want to exclude the supernatural. There are plenty of Christians who believe in the supernatural but who also accept evolution.