Author Topic: For Michael Wilson  (Read 762 times)

Offline Heinrich

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For Michael Wilson
« on: November 20, 2018, 03:19:58 PM »
And everyone else, actually. Señor Wilson, were you there?

Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2018, 03:29:24 PM »
I wasn't there, but I remember the event well; some ETA terrorists were executed and the liberal (Communist sympathizing) media went ballistic. The Archbishop of Madrid latter revealed that he had the decree excommunicating Franco already signed and in his pocket, but decided against publishing it; maybe he was afraid that Franco would have expelled him and invited Msgr. Lefebvre to take his place.
Thanks for posting the video.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2018, 04:05:30 PM »
I wasn't there, but I remember the event well; some ETA terrorists were executed and the liberal (Communist sympathizing) media went ballistic. The Archbishop of Madrid latter revealed that he had the decree excommunicating Franco already signed and in his pocket, but decided against publishing it; maybe he was afraid that Franco would have expelled him and invited Msgr. Lefebvre to take his place.
Thanks for posting the video.

This was 7 weeks prior to Franco's death. Did he die formally excommunicated? By publishing, do you mean going through the formal process of excommunication, or simply releasing the decree to the press?
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline james.rogerson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2018, 04:12:08 PM »
Fascinating- thanks for posting. Were these the executions of the terrorists who assassinated Carrero Blanco? I remember reading in Preston's biography that Franco's brother even wrote to him to ask him not to proceed. A fascinating historical document.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2018, 05:24:52 PM »
Fascinating- thanks for posting. Were these the executions of the terrorists who assassinated Carrero Blanco? I remember reading in Preston's biography that Franco's brother even wrote to him to ask him not to proceed. A fascinating historical document.

Doesn't appear to be the same criminals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_use_of_capital_punishment_in_Spain
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline james.rogerson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2018, 07:21:49 PM »
Thanks Heinrich, very interesting.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2018, 09:19:58 PM »
Thanks Heinrich, very interesting.

You are welcome. ¡Viva Franco! ¡Viva España! ¡Viva el Cristo Rey!
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2018, 01:56:47 PM »
Heirich,
No, the decree was never issued, so there was no exco.
Re. Paul Preston; he is very biased and anti-Franco. If you want to read a better source on the Spanish Civil war, try Stanley Payne or Burnett Bolloten.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2018, 02:28:02 PM »

If you want to read a better source on the Spanish Civil war, try Stanley Payne or Burnett Bolloten.

The best source, in so many ways, is to read "The Cypresses Believe in God."

It gives you an in-depth portrayal of the Spanish Civil War in a way that makes you feel like you lived through it yourself and really know these people.

Most people only read the first novel, but it's worth reading the entire trilogy.

https://www.amazon.com/Cypresses-Believe-Jose-Maria-Gironella/dp/B0007DXRXC/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1542828309&sr=1-3

5.0 out of 5 stars
Excellent historical novel
May 22, 2017
Format: Paperback
Verified Purchase
One of the best novels I've read. Very informative and never gets dull. His portrayal of the different factions during the Spanish Civil War, from the throne and altar Catholics, to the anarchist, communists, free masons, to the republican Catholics, it's all really interesting and the characters are great. You won't forget the ending as it's one of the most beautiful and powerful moments in any novel I've read. This book is a must read. I think of it as War and Peace was to the napoleonic wars, this is to the Spanish Civil War.

 
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Offline james.rogerson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2018, 02:38:56 PM »
Re Paul Preston; you're right, of course that he is politically opposed to Franco. On the other hand, he can be surprisingly unbiased in some respects. The biography is not a complete exercise in trashing Franco- in many respects it's quite even handed, and the treatment of his final years I always find curiously moving. And in person (he taught me the Spanish civil war at LSE) he is a vigorous defender of Franco against the charge of being a fascist.

Payne's book is good, and so is "The Cypresses," although the last time I looked (quite a few years ago) it was out of print and copies were ridiculously expensive.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2018, 06:22:09 PM »
Anyone have experience with William Thomas Walsh's La actual situatión de España (booklet, 1944)
El casa crucial de España (booklet, 1946).

Warren H Carroll does a good job here with a Cliffnotesesque long essay on the SCW.

https://www.amazon.com/Last-Crusade-Spain-1936/dp/0931888670#customerReviews

From the cursory understanding I do have of this conflict, I glean that we in America are somewhat similar to the situation in republican Spain of the 1930's.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2018, 08:09:08 PM »
James R.
I've never read Preston, and I'm surprised by what you said about him. I have read Ricardo De La Cierva, who describes himself as pro-Franco up until the 1960's, when in his opinion Franco should have ushered in Democracy and retired.  He has many criticisms of Preston in his book "Franco La Historia", a biography of Franco. Including in his introduction, in which he qualifies Preston as "upholding opinions close to that of what can be termed International Socialism (Preston & Santos Julia).
On page # 231 he states: "Mein Kamph appeared in a scrupulous translation from the German in 1933 in a Spanish edition, and it was obligatory reading for all those wishing to keep informed on European politics. I was aware that among those who read the book, two were my Grandfather Juan de la Cierva and General Franco when he was stationed in Mayorca.  To attribute to either of them Hitlerian inclinations is an absurdity bordering on sarcasm. Of my Grandfather, nobody has said anything, but of Franco, its been said many times, and Jose Maria Anson has been the one that has insisted on this the most, in his fascination for Paul Preston and absolutely mistaken just like him."
On page 242, he writes: "The military anti-biographer, Colonel Blanco Escola, dares at this late date to affirm that the revolution in Asturias was provoked or permitted by the reactionary forces in Spain, headed by Gil Robles, in order to squash the worker movement; using pseudo historians such as Preston and Colodny as his sources in order to repeat one of the greatest enormities that has been written about the History of Spain in the XX Century. And this despite the abundant evidence from writers from both sides of the issue including those of the then General Secretary of the Socialist Party in his : "El bienio negro y la insureccion de Asturias." 
And those are only two of the 26 places in the book where he criticizes or contradicts Preston. Doesn't really raise my confidence level in him.
 
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2018, 08:41:02 PM »

(he taught me the Spanish civil war at LSE)

What's "LSE"?


 he is a vigorous defender of Franco against the charge of being a fascist.

But Franco was a fascist. And why would he want to "defend" Franco against this charge?


Payne's book is good, and so is "The Cypresses," although the last time I looked (quite a few years ago) it was out of print and copies were ridiculously expensive.

Looks like Ignatius Press is doing a reprint.

https://www.amazon.com/Cypresses-Believe-Jose-Maria-Gironella/dp/1586170465
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2018, 08:50:10 PM »
And this popped into my feed:

Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline james.rogerson

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Re: For Michael Wilson
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2018, 11:29:46 PM »
LSE is the London School of Economics. It's part of the University of London. It's where Sir Paul Preston teaches (or did 18 years ago).

Preston's position is that fascism is a modern(ist) ideology, and that Franco is best seen as an antimodern traditionalist, and therefore not as a fascist. I've seen him defend Franco against leftist critics who want to regard him as a fascist to put him outside the bounds of civilised conversation. I can't remember the details sufficiently to comment, but I think Franco's relationship with the Falange was not always without friction. Preston sees that as part of the demonstration that Franco was not a fascist.

Preston doesn't hide his political commitments; he's a European social democrat. I don't intend to defend his politics. They are what they are.

But you'll find his biography a) exhaustive b) well researched C) not entirely unsympathetic to Franco d) not a 600 page denunciation of Franco and, most importantly e) readable, which is not something that can be said of all historians.


 
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