Author Topic: Religious Liberty  (Read 1032 times)

Online Daniel

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2018, 12:26:11 PM »
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2018, 06:51:50 PM »
Heinrich stated:
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Michael, you lived a bit in Spain under Generalissimo Franco? A person once gave anecdotes as to how all other "religions" were allowed to practice. In the respective embassies. This person, a "conservative" decried the lack of religious freedom that existed there.
Heinrich,
 from 1939 (the end of the Civil War) until 1967, Spain was an official Catholic Country and no other religions were allowed to publicly practice their religion, in conformity with the teaching of the Church. In 1967, Spain changed its Constitution upon the request of the Vatican, in order to bring its Constitution in line with the novel teaching of Vatican II on Religious Liberty.
Here is an article from the N.Y.T. In !964 that explained (in its usual biased way) the situation:https://www.nytimes.com/1964/10/14/archives/spain-and-the-vatican.html
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The Concordat of 1953 contained a protocol upholding an article in the Fueros, or bill of rights, of 1945 that said : “None shall be molested for his religious beliefs or for private practice of his worship.” But the key‐ word is “private.” The basis of the Concordat is explicit. It states that “the Catholic, Apostolic, Roman religion continues to be the sole religion of the Spanish nation.”
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline EliRotello

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2018, 10:46:47 AM »
If “religious liberty”, as in a liberty to believe and practice whatever one chooses, were a ”right”, the First Commandment would be a violation of it, as would it’s enforcement by the state under the Modaic law. That is logic.

Yes, the words are “in” Vatican 2. Now go read the relatio for the text.

But wouldn’t there be liberty to practice the first commandment, either way, with the philosophical necessity of Religious Liberty, either way?
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2018, 01:35:58 PM »
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But wouldn’t there be liberty to practice the first commandment, either way, with the philosophical necessity of Religious Liberty, either way?
Religious Liberty as understood by the Liberals, would entail the right to practice or not to practice the first commandment; both would be seen as equally valid options. For the Liberal there is no legitimate law that would limit the free exercise of the citizen's right to exercise his religion; even if he was a free-thinker, agnostic, satanist etc. The only limit would be not to interfere with one's fellow citizen's right and the maintenance of public order.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline EliRotello

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2018, 01:55:25 PM »
But either way, that would be religious liberty too, wouldn’t it be?  Either way in anything religious whatsoever, there is liberty in Religion.  I type Religious Liberty, and that is Religious Liberty, will anyone agree that is true?
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Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2018, 02:41:34 PM »
I'm not sure what you are stating; but there is no "right" to practice a false religion; only the right and duty  of men to practice the one true religion. The state can justly repress the practice of false religions, and even has the duty to. The state may "tolerate" the practice of false religions where a greater harm to the common good, would be caused by their repression; but that toleration never confers on the false religions any right.
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 

Offline St.Justin

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2018, 03:44:13 PM »
But either way, that would be religious liberty too, wouldn’t it be?  Either way in anything religious whatsoever, there is liberty in Religion.  I type Religious Liberty, and that is Religious Liberty, will anyone agree that is true?
A Right is something that is something that is granted free from all debt. No one can have a Right to do something evil or immoral as that would incur a debt.
 

Offline Elizabeth

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2018, 04:00:07 PM »

 there is no "right" to practice a false religion..

:coffee:..and that's that.
 
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Offline EliRotello

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2018, 02:25:08 PM »
"...And that's that," is Religious Liberty, too, isn't it?
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2018, 05:32:56 PM »
"...And that's that," is Religious Liberty, too, isn't it?
You have the liberty or free will to do what ever you want. There is a huge difference between a liberty (free will) and a Right.
 
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Online Daniel

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2018, 09:04:13 PM »
Just wondering, does the Church have any official teaching on the nature of "rights"? Because if not, then I think the easiest solution would simply be to deny the existence of "rights".

Forget about "rights" for a moment and focus only on "duties": Every man has a natural duty to practice the true religion, and, since men each have a duty to practice the true religion, every state has a consequent duty to allow its citizens and guests to practice that true religion. Conversely, nobody has a duty to practice a false religion, so no state has any sort of duty to allow its citizens to practice false religions (though this doesn't necessarily mean that the states have a duty to forbid the people from practicing false religions).

I'd think it would be as simple as that. No need to appeal to any doctrine of "rights".
« Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 09:06:05 PM by Daniel »
 
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Offline St.Justin

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2018, 09:20:53 PM »
From VII: DIGNITATIS HUMANAE
"2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits."

To call "religious freedom" a right is tantamount to heresy

My question is this statement the basis of what EliRotello is arguing for? If it is he is surely misguided.
 

Offline Michael Wilson

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2018, 09:34:37 PM »
Daniel,
 excellent post; however, the state does have the duty to "repress" false religions; however that duty is not "absolute" i.e. It does not always apply in all cases at all times.
Here is a link to the article published by Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani on this very subject:
https://archive.org/stream/DutiesOfTheCatholicStateOttavianiCard.Alfredo4570/Duties%20of%20the%20Catholic%20State%20-%20Ottaviani%2C%20Card.%20Alfredo_4570_djvu.txt
"The World Must Conform to Our Lord and not He to it." Rev. Dennis Fahey CSSP

"My brothers, all of you, if you are condemned to see the triumph of evil, never applaud it. Never say to evil: you are good; to decadence: you are progess; to death: you are life. Sanctify yourselves in the times wherein God has placed you; bewail the evils and the disorders which God tolerates; oppose them with the energy of your works and your efforts, your life uncontaminated by error, free from being led astray, in such a way that having lived here below, united with the Spirit of the Lord, you will be admitted to be made but one with Him forever and ever: But he who is joined to the Lord is one in spirit." Cardinal Pie of Potiers
 
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Offline james03

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2018, 11:25:48 PM »
I think Eli is a bot.  I still don't know its question.

If he is not a bot, then he has a question that may be troubling him that he does not want to ask.
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Offline MeanGene

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Re: Religious Liberty
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2018, 06:42:38 AM »
I think Eli is a bot.  I still don't know its question.

If he is not a bot, then he has a question that may be troubling him that he does not want to ask.

A third option might be that he's not a native English speaker and is having trouble formulating his question. Interestingly, he's started the exact same thread over at the Fisheaters forum, and people are just as confused there as they are over here.

https://www.fisheaters.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=83596
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