Author Topic: Is jesus submissive to the father?  (Read 476 times)

Offline JesusIsGod

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Is jesus submissive to the father?
« on: November 07, 2018, 05:49:10 PM »
Why is jesus submissive to the Father ?
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2018, 07:53:39 PM »
It probably has something to do with his dual nature. Or maybe it's merely to set an example for us to follow.
 

Online Maximilian

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2018, 10:43:18 PM »
Why is jesus submissive to the Father ?

Because that is the only way to have a proper relationship of grace. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as equality. All relationships that communicate grace occur in a hierarchical relationship. The Son does only the will of the Father, never his own will, because he never considers equality with God something to be grasped at.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 12:56:19 AM »
He was submissive in His human nature, not considered simply. It cannot be said that in His Divine nature He was submissive, as that would tear apart the unity, glory and majesty of the Holy Trinity. It'd be, I dunno, the holy "sorta broken tripod", if not a bipod.

Why is jesus submissive to the Father ?

Because that is the only way to have a proper relationship of grace. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as equality. All relationships that communicate grace occur in a hierarchical relationship. The Son does only the will of the Father, never his own will, because he never considers equality with God something to be grasped at.

This is sloppy language because it addresses the manner of Christ's submissiveness in a "simple" manner, rather than in consideration of His Divinity as present in the hypostatic union.

Further, there is, in the spiritual world, equality: the Holy Trinity.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe

Providence is a present mystery by which our hope is confirmed and our faith solidified, if we give not into despair or disbelief.
 
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 04:41:53 AM »
Why is jesus submissive to the Father ?

Because that is the only way to have a proper relationship of grace. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as equality.

...  coequal ...


Quote
All relationships that communicate grace occur in a hierarchical relationship. The Son does only the will of the Father, never his own will, because he never considers equality with God something to be grasped at.

Are you saying the three hypostases, in their divine nature, account for three individual wills? I don’t know how you square that with the identity and unity of the divine ousia in each.

 

Online Maximilian

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 12:29:44 PM »
Why is jesus submissive to the Father ?

Because that is the only way to have a proper relationship of grace. In the spiritual world there is no such thing as equality. All relationships that communicate grace occur in a hierarchical relationship. The Son does only the will of the Father, never his own will, because he never considers equality with God something to be grasped at.

This is sloppy language because it addresses the manner of Christ's submissiveness in a "simple" manner, rather than in consideration of His Divinity as present in the hypostatic union.

Yes, "sloppy language" is a good description of what I posted. I was providing a more or less literal quote of St. Paul in Phil 2:6, but after checking, I discovered that I was remembering a newer Bible translation, which, it turns out, is not accurate.

English Standard Version: "who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped at."

Douay Rheims: "Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

Here is a description of the argument over the proper translation, and at the end of the article even the new translators admit that they were wrong.

http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/thought-it-not-robbery-to-be-equal-with-god-or-did-not-regard-equality-with-god-a-thing-to-be-grasped-in-philippians-26

"The issue with the KJV, however, is not that it translates ambiguously but that it translates differently than the NIV.  The KJV and the NIV do not say the same thing,  The NIV's "[Jesus] did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" means that Jesus did not try to be equal with God.  The KJV's "[Jesus] thought it not robbery to be equal with God" means that Jesus did not think being equal with God was wrong - meaning that Jesus thought that he was God.  The difference is in the way ἁρπαγμὸν is translated - either in the active voice or the passive voice and either with a negative or positive connotation.
 
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Offline JesusIsGod

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 07:22:48 PM »
The father is greater then the son.
Jesus said so himself.
 

Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Is jesus submissive to the father?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2018, 04:39:25 PM »
The father is greater then the son.
Jesus said so himself.

“I am subordinate to the Father” and other words found nowhere in the Bible.

Jesus submits to God as man; as God he submits to no one.

The Father is greater than the Son as hypostasis for being the source of the latter’s generation; in their ousia they are equal as one absolutely uncaused, self-identical being. Contrary to popular misunderstanding of the Trinity, God is not an ontological schizoid suffering from multiple personality disorder; the ousia is not to the hypostases, even by deficient analogue, as humanity is to three human persons, in the minds of the Cappadocian fathers. This is not particularly difficult to grasp, despite the post-Augustinian tendency in the West of pronouncing it all an unfathomable mystery known only by revelation.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 04:50:00 PM by Kreuzritter »
 
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