Author Topic: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos  (Read 9387 times)

Offline Gardener

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2018, 06:55:56 PM »
How can a private revelation be validly approved when a Seer admits withholding pertinent information?

She didn't admit to witholding the Secrets until after the 1930 approval.

Which is my point. It would seem to reopen the door and cast doubts on her viability.
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2018, 08:00:28 PM »
How can a private revelation be validly approved when a Seer admits withholding pertinent information?

She didn't admit to witholding the Secrets until after the 1930 approval.

Which is my point. It would seem to reopen the door and cast doubts on her viability.

Yes it would.

Here is part of Sr Lucy's explanation for withholding the Secrets until 1941, taken from her Fourth Memoir, written that year.

Quote

II.  THE  STORY  OF  THE  APPARITIONS
PROLOGUE
Now, Your Excellency, we come to the most difficult part of all that you have commanded me to put in writing. First of all, Your Excellency has expressly required of me to write about the Apparitions of the Angel, putting down every circumstance and detail, and even, as far as possible, their interior effects upon us. Then, along comes Dr. Galamba to ask you to command me also to write about the Apparitions of Our Lady. “Command her, Your Excellency,” he said a little while ago in Valença. “Yes, Your Excellency, command her to write everything, absolutely everything. She’ll have to do the rounds of purgatory many a time for having kept silent about so many things!”

As for purgatory, I am not in the least afraid of it, from this point of view. I have always obeyed, and obedience deserves neither penalty nor punishment. Firstly, I obeyed the interior inspirations of the Holy Spirit, and secondly, I obeyed the commands of those who spoke to me in His name. This very thing was the first order and counsel which God deigned to give me through Your Excellency. Happy and content, I recalled the words I had heard long ago from the lips of that holy priest, the Vicar of Torres Novas: “The secret of the King’s daughter should remain hidden in the depths of her heart.” Then, beginning to penetrate their meaning, I said: “My secret is for myself.” But now, I can no longer say so. Immolated on the altar of obedience, I say rather: “My secret belongs to God. I have placed it in His hands; may He do with it as best pleases Him.”

Dr. Galamba said then: “Your Excellency, command her to say everything, everything, and to hide nothing.” And Your Excellency, assisted most certainly by the Holy Spirit, pronounced this judgement: “No, I will not command that! I will have nothing to do with matters of secrets.”  Thanks be to God! Any other order would have been for me a source of endless perplexities and scruples. Had I received a contrary command, I would have asked myself, times without number: “Whom should I obey? God or His representative?” And perhaps, being unable to come to a decision, I would have been left in a state of real inner torment!
Extract starts on page 168 of this version of Sr Lucy's Diaries.
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf

Who, then, does a visionary/seer obey?  God or His representatives?

Sr Lucy said, "Firstly, I obeyed the interior inspirations of the Holy Spirit, and secondly, I obeyed the commands of those who spoke to me in His name."

This is why she did not reveal the Secrets of the Angel Apparitions to the Canonical Enquiry.  She was obeying the interior inspirations of the Holy Spirit first, and the commands of the men of the Church second.

Is this order of obedience appropriate for a Catholic visionary?  Would the Holy Ghost really advise a visionary to withold information from the Church?

I may be wrong in thinking  that the answer to both questions is no.










And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 
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Offline Gerard

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2018, 02:50:01 AM »
"The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI."  Our Lady of Fatima

Sr Lucy wrote down this 'prediction' in 1941, after the war had started.  She made no mention of it prior to that year, either verbally or in writing.

Predictions should be made before the event has taken place, not after.

I see you are a follower of "Evil Lucia" theory who made up many false prophecies.

Our Lady came to save us from what was coming and we throw bricks at her.


Why the nastiness? I'll bet you encounter people who are nominal Catholics who,  on a daily basis who overtly disagree with dogmas and clear undeniable doctrines of the Church and you probably don't get nearly as worked up over that as you do when people point out real, quantifiable problems with the Fatima narrative, which is not obligatory for any Catholic to believe.

"Our Lady came to save us…" is not a doctrine of the Catholic Church. 

And if it was Our Lady, her apparition would stand up to scrutiny, it not, if it's false, it deserves to be taken down. 

Hmmm… I think I have the answer to the first question.  Maybe that's the reason why so many Catholics don't bother to get worked up when dogmas are undermined, they know they can't be toppled.  But when the cracks begin to show in something not Divinely Revealed, not part of the Deposit of Faith, the panic of possibly being wrong  sets in and the messenger must be attacked to prevent the truth of the message from getting out. 

 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2018, 08:46:49 AM »
And if it was Our Lady, her apparition would stand up to scrutiny, it not, if it's false, it deserves to be taken down. 

Exactly.  And if Sr Lucy was a true visionary/seer, she would also stand up to scrutiny.

So let's scrutinise Sr Lucy's explanation for withholding the Secrets and the Angel Apparations from the Canonical Enquiry into Fatima, posted below

Does her explanation withstand such scrutiny?  I don't think so.  This extract is particularly dubious.

Quote

Then, along comes Dr. Galamba to ask you to command me also to write about the Apparitions of Our Lady. “Command her, Your Excellency,” he said a little while ago in Valença. “Yes, Your Excellency, command her to write everything, absolutely everything. She’ll have to do the rounds of purgatory many a time for having kept silent about so many things!”
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf (p168)

As for purgatory, I am not in the least afraid of it, from this point of view. I have always obeyed, and obedience deserves neither penalty nor punishment. Firstly, I obeyed the interior inspirations of the Holy Spirit, and secondly, I obeyed the commands of those who spoke to me in His name.

Has there ever been a Saint, Visionary, Doctor, who has claimed to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to withhold crucial information from the Church?

Is obeying the inspirations of the Holy Spirit first, and the men of the Church - God's representatives - second, the appropriate order of obedience for any Catholic, let alone a visionary/seer?

Was Sr Lucy right to be not in the least afraid of Purgatory?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 

Offline Sempronius

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2018, 11:23:40 AM »
I read from a saint (think it was John of the Cross), who said that purgatory is a horrible place, and your own realization that God doesnt want you in His presence the way you are would kill you if it wasnt for His mercy.

So its strange that Sr Lucy wasnt afraid, or she had a wrong view of purgatory.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2018, 11:32:20 AM »
I read from a saint (think it was John of the Cross), who said that purgatory is a horrible place, and your own realization that God doesnt want you in His presence the way you are would kill you if it wasnt for His mercy.

So its strange that Sr Lucy wasnt afraid, or she had a wrong view of purgatory.

Or she knew that she wasn't doing wrong.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2018, 11:39:47 AM »
How can a private revelation be validly approved when a Seer admits withholding pertinent information?

She didn't admit to witholding the Secrets until after the 1930 approval.

Which is my point. It would seem to reopen the door and cast doubts on her viability.

Yet Pope Pius XII didn't seem to have a problem with it.  In fact he attempted a consecration of Russia in 1942.

From this site, page 179.
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf

Quote
When  you  see  a  night  illumined  by  an unknown light 14
...
14 This was the aurora borealis on the night of January 25th to 26th, 1938, which was unusual, and always regarded by Lucia as the God-given sign which had been promised.

That implies that Sister Lucy talked about the God-given sign when it happen on Jan. 25/26, 1938, like Deidre Manifold said and that I posted in Reply #24.

Quote
When the bright light shone in the sky, Sister Lucia, the Fatima seer, in her convent in Spain, let it be known that this was the sign given by God, and foretold by Our Lady of Fatima on July 13, 1917, that a major war would soon occur.
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto
 
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Offline Elizabeth

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2018, 02:16:25 PM »
I read from a saint (think it was John of the Cross), who said that purgatory is a horrible place, and your own realization that God doesnt want you in His presence the way you are would kill you if it wasnt for His mercy.

So its strange that Sr Lucy wasnt afraid, or she had a wrong view of purgatory.

Or she knew that she wasn't doing wrong.
  Having been through being kidnapped and threatened with boiling oil and criminals as a little girl, not to mention having seen Hell itself, I'm betting Sr. Lucy behaved herself at all times!
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2018, 02:20:20 PM »
Gotta be honest, this "revelation" of her withholding pertinent info is really swaying me into Gerard's position that Fatima is a diabolical trick.
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe
 

Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2018, 02:53:51 PM »
Quote
When  you  see  a  night  illumined  by  an unknown light 14
...
14 This was the aurora borealis on the night of January 25th to 26th, 1938, which was unusual, and always regarded by Lucia as the God-given sign which had been promised.

That implies that Sister Lucy talked about the God-given sign when it happen on Jan. 25/26, 1938, like Deidre Manifold said and that I posted in Reply #24.

Quote
When the bright light shone in the sky, Sister Lucia, the Fatima seer, in her convent in Spain, let it be known that this was the sign given by God, and foretold by Our Lady of Fatima on July 13, 1917, that a major war would soon occur.

Mikemac, Deidre Manifold is stating here that Sr Lucy waited until AFTER the aurora borealis of 1938 to reveal that this was the 'prophesied' unknown light of the Second Secret.  Sister Lucy was in her convent in Spain and as soon as the aurora borealis happened, according to Deidre Manifold, she claimed that this was the 'unknown light' of the 'prophecy' given to her by Our Lady. 

It's incredible really. Sr Lucy hears about the aurora borealis of 1938 and announces that it was prophesied in in 1917.  And yet she has kept the prophecy to herself until that moment!  And not revealed it to the Canonical Enquiry!

Withholding entire prophecies from the Church and the world until a natural event takes place which fits with the as yet unrevealed 'prophecy' - is this how prophecy works?

Deidre Manifold is also suggesting that Sr Lucy wasn't telling the truth when she wrote in her Third Memoir in 1941 that she was revealing the Secrets for the first time. 

Incidentally, who is Deidre Manifold?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2018, 06:10:50 PM »
Further into her Fourth Memoir, Sr Lucy offers a more detailed explanation for not revealing the Secrets and the Angel Apparitions at the Canonical Enquiry.

Quote

2.  Lucia’s  Silence

I do not know why, but the Apparitions of Our Lady produced in us very different effects. We felt the same intimate joy, the same peace and happiness, but instead of physical prostration, an expansive ease of movement; instead of this annihilation in the Divine Presence, a joyful exultation; instead of the difficulty in speaking, we felt a certain communicative enthusiasm. Despite these feelings, however, we felt inspired to be silent, especially concerning certain things.

Whenever I was interrogated, I experienced an interior inspiration which directed me how to answer, without either failing in truth or revealing what should remain hidden for the time being. In this respect, I still have just this one doubt: “Should I not have said everything in the canonical enquiry?” But I have no scruples about having kept silence, because at that time I had as yet no realization of the importance of this particular interrogation. I regarded it, at the time, as being just like the many other interrogations to which I was accustomed. The only thing I thought strange was the order to take the oath. But as it was my confessor who told me to do so, and as I was swearing to the truth, I took the oath without any difficulty. Little did I suspect, at that moment, that the devil would make the most of this, in order to torment me with endless scruples later on. But, thank God, all that is over now.

There was yet another reason which confirmed me in my conviction that I did well to remain silent. In the course of the canonical enquiry, one of the interrogators, Rev. Dr. Marques dos Santos, thought he could extend somewhat his questionnaire, and began therefore to ask more searching questions. Before answering, I looked enquiringly at my confessor. His Reverence saved me from my predicament, and answered on my behalf. He reminded the interrogator that he was exceeding his rights in this matter.

Almost the same thing happened when I was questioned by Rev. Dr. Fischer. He had the authorization of Your Excellency and of Rev. Mother Provincial, and seemed to have the right to question me on everything. But, thank God, he came accompanied by my confessor. At a given moment, he put to me a carefully studied question about the Secret. I felt perplexed, and did not know how to answer. I glanced towards my confessor; he understood me and answered for me. The interrogator understood also, and confined himself to picking up some magazines Iying nearby and holding them in front of my face. In this way, God was showing me that the moment appointed by Him had not yet arrived. 

I shall now go on to write about the Apparitions of Our Lady. I shall not delay over the circumstances that preceded or followed them, since Rev. Dr. Galamba has kindly dispensed me from doing so.
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf 
(p 173)

What would the oath have been that Sr Lucy took at the Canonical Enquiry?

Did she break it?
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2018, 06:26:04 PM »
How can a private revelation be validly approved when a Seer admits withholding pertinent information?

She didn't admit to witholding the Secrets until after the 1930 approval.

Which is my point. It would seem to reopen the door and cast doubts on her viability.

Yet Pope Pius XII didn't seem to have a problem with it.  In fact he attempted a consecration of Russia in 1942.

From this site, page 179.
http://www.pastorinhos.com/_wp/wp-content/uploads/MemoriasI_en.pdf

Quote
When  you  see  a  night  illumined  by  an unknown light 14
...
14 This was the aurora borealis on the night of January 25th to 26th, 1938, which was unusual, and always regarded by Lucia as the God-given sign which had been promised.

That implies that Sister Lucy talked about the God-given sign when it happen on Jan. 25/26, 1938, like Deidre Manifold said and that I posted in Reply #24.

Quote
When the bright light shone in the sky, Sister Lucia, the Fatima seer, in her convent in Spain, let it be known that this was the sign given by God, and foretold by Our Lady of Fatima on July 13, 1917, that a major war would soon occur.

Apparitions cannot be approved of while ongoing. To withhold pertinent information is to effectively retroactively prolong them and should, in my understanding of the process, nullify the approval.

God NEVER demands disobedience to His own representatives who are merely following protocol and not commanding sin. All the great mystics went through some trial of obedience precisely because it was truly God leading them. They didn't lie or disobey.

Pius XII didn't seem to have a problem with a lot of stuff that hindsight reveals he should have.
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Offline james03

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2018, 07:03:45 PM »
Fatima has some problems.  Portugal being the big one.

On the plus side:

1.  the envelopes said to open in 1960.  This is not a rumor, the Vatican displayed the envelopes with the writing.  This was right before Vee Poo.  That is a big deal to me.

2.  The Vatican lying about Fatima.  The 1960 announcement: "The words of Our Lady may never be revealed".  So where are these words of Our Lady?

3.  The Pius XII prophesy written when he was a Cardinal, a prophesy he links with Fatima.  Included in this was the removal of the sanctuaries.  A warning against altering the Faith and the Mass.  This was early '30's, so evidently Sr. Lucy was already communicating with Rome at that time.

4.  Cardinal Ciappi, who read the secret wrote:  “In the Third Secret it is predicted, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.”  Unless ++Ciappi is a pathological liar, you have to say the prediction was spot on.
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2018, 07:41:20 PM »
Quote

“Should I not have said everything in the canonical enquiry?” But I have no scruples about having kept silence, because at that time I had as yet no realization of the importance of this particular interrogation. I regarded it, at the time, as being just like the many other interrogations to which I was accustomed. The only thing I thought strange was the order to take the oath. But as it was my confessor who told me to do so, and as I was swearing to the truth, I took the oath without any difficulty.

In this quote taken from above, is Sr Lucy implying that she broke the oath she made to the Canonical Enquiry?

A quick Google search found nothing, but might the oath include something along the lines of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

In which case, Sr Lucy didn't.  She withheld vital information and broke her oath.

There must be a way of checking this.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.   
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.
 

Offline mikemac

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Re: Theory about The Crisis and the chaos
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2018, 09:49:52 PM »
Fatima has some problems.  Portugal being the big one.

On the plus side:

1.  the envelopes said to open in 1960.  This is not a rumor, the Vatican displayed the envelopes with the writing.  This was right before Vee Poo.  That is a big deal to me.

2.  The Vatican lying about Fatima.  The 1960 announcement: "The words of Our Lady may never be revealed".  So where are these words of Our Lady?

3.  The Pius XII prophesy written when he was a Cardinal, a prophesy he links with Fatima.  Included in this was the removal of the sanctuaries.  A warning against altering the Faith and the Mass.  This was early '30's, so evidently Sr. Lucy was already communicating with Rome at that time.

4.  Cardinal Ciappi, who read the secret wrote:  “In the Third Secret it is predicted, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top.”  Unless ++Ciappi is a pathological liar, you have to say the prediction was spot on.

Number 3 alone should be suffice to answer awkwardcustomer's, Gardener's and even Gerard's questions about Fatima.  Pope Pius XII's prophecy took place in 1933 while he was a Cardinal.  So obviously, as James says Sr. Lucy was already communicating with Rome.  Rome didn't have to wait until Sister Lucy's 1941 memoirs.  Pope Pius XII's prophecy starts off with the following.

Quote
Suppose, dear friend, that Communism is the most visible among the organs of subversion against the Church and the Tradition of Divine Revelation. Thus, we will witness the invasion of everything that is spiritual: philosophy, science, law, teaching, the arts, the media, literature, theater, and religion.

I am concerned about the confidences of the Virgin to the little Lucia of Fatima. This persistence of the Good Lady in face of the danger that threatens the Church is a divine warning against the suicide that the alteration of the Faith, in its liturgy, its theology, and its soul, would represent.
...
Source - https://onepeterfive.com/pius-xiis-prophetic-warnings-fatima-suicide-altering-faith-liturgy/
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto
 
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