Author Topic: St Mary's KS sspx  (Read 2821 times)

Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 08:34:20 PM »

Also, these are my top two rules of parenting:

2) never put anything past your  children....yes, they are capable... even your precious little angel

Many excellent points in your post. I would like to call attention to this one in particular.

Remember, you child is someone else's peer! When you complain about "peer pressure" having a negative effect on your child, it is helpful to recall that your child is the peer setting a bad example for other people's children.

Parents always tend to believe that their child is the little angel being led astray by other people's children, but the reality is so often just the opposite.

The poster complaining about the bad influence his son received at St. Mary's, I wonder just how innocent was his son? Nothing personal about that poster, but the math just doesn't add up here -- how can everyone else be so wicked and only his son be an island of angelic piety?

It is the nature of society, the nature of life, that no one is perfect. Those who withdraw to the Ozark mountains to be free of worldly taint, just how pure will they find themselves out there in the wilds?

I have witnessed scenarios like this being played out in real life. "Kick out the diseased sheep before it infects the rest of the flock." Pretty soon there are no sheep left in the flock. Except perhaps maybe 1 or 2 children of parents who are so blind that they still believe that their little lamb is the only one not subject to original sin.

I know one traditional Catholic mother who kicked out virtually an entire traditional Catholic school because none of the other children were pure enough for her darling daughter. She's not aware that right this minute her daughter has a crush on a guy with a felony juvenile record.
 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 08:48:28 PM »

While I think homeschooling certainly does stack the deck in our favor, for my own family, it is definitely NOT. A magic bullet.  For my children or anyone else's. 

Another excellent point in your post.

I've seen so many children show up at traditional Catholic schools in 5th or 6th grade, virtually illiterate and innumerate. In the parents' obsession to protect the children from sin, they have protected them from life, including such aspects of life as reading and the times tables.

The only thing phonier than the statistics for NFP are the statistics for home schooling. Working-class parents who try to home-school is almost a certainty for educational failure. But I've seen many children with college-educated parents who struggle with the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic.

Home-schooling almost inevitably become no-schooling. Chaos reigns.

The family is not a perfect society (in the technical sense). "Swiss Family Robinson" is a false utopia. A single family is not capable of providing all the things necessary for survival -- neither the survival of the family itself, nor the survival of the race.
 
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Offline Traditionallyruralmom

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 10:53:06 AM »

While I think homeschooling certainly does stack the deck in our favor, for my own family, it is definitely NOT. A magic bullet.  For my children or anyone else's. 

Another excellent point in your post.

I've seen so many children show up at traditional Catholic schools in 5th or 6th grade, virtually illiterate and innumerate. In the parents' obsession to protect the children from sin, they have protected them from life, including such aspects of life as reading and the times tables.

The only thing phonier than the statistics for NFP are the statistics for home schooling. Working-class parents who try to home-school is almost a certainty for educational failure. But I've seen many children with college-educated parents who struggle with the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic.

Home-schooling almost inevitably become no-schooling. Chaos reigns.

The family is not a perfect society (in the technical sense). "Swiss Family Robinson" is a false utopia. A single family is not capable of providing all the things necessary for survival -- neither the survival of the family itself, nor the survival of the race.
I think that no homeschooler who has been in the occupation for a long time (15 years here) will still think that unto themselves they can do it all....We know that that mentality leads to miserable children, or weird "holier than thou, I can't socalize with you and you should not socialize with him" behavior (seen both  :()

But homeschooling by a family that realistically tries to find many outlets for their childrens development outside the home (sports, clubs, homeschool groups...YES, even with friendly protestants...ect) and uses the modern resources to outsource the education when ever they can, IF they need to...(online classes, DVD math programs ect) makes for a well rounded child.

Please dont paint Homeschooling with such a broad negative brush :)
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Offline Traditionallyruralmom

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 11:26:17 AM »
I went to 12 years of public school and I dont know my times tables  :cheeseheadbeer:
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Offline Elizabeth

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2018, 11:51:17 AM »
I went to 12 years of public school and I dont know my times tables  :cheeseheadbeer:
:cheeseheadbeer: :cheeseheadbeer: :cheeseheadbeer: :cheeseheadbeer: :cheeseheadbeer:
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 11:59:06 AM »

While I think homeschooling certainly does stack the deck in our favor, for my own family, it is definitely NOT. A magic bullet.  For my children or anyone else's. 

Another excellent point in your post.

I've seen so many children show up at traditional Catholic schools in 5th or 6th grade, virtually illiterate and innumerate. In the parents' obsession to protect the children from sin, they have protected them from life, including such aspects of life as reading and the times tables.

The only thing phonier than the statistics for NFP are the statistics for home schooling. Working-class parents who try to home-school is almost a certainty for educational failure. But I've seen many children with college-educated parents who struggle with the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic.

Home-schooling almost inevitably become no-schooling. Chaos reigns.

The family is not a perfect society (in the technical sense). "Swiss Family Robinson" is a false utopia. A single family is not capable of providing all the things necessary for survival -- neither the survival of the family itself, nor the survival of the race.
I think that no homeschooler who has been in the occupation for a long time (15 years here) will still think that unto themselves they can do it all....We know that that mentality leads to miserable children, or weird "holier than thou, I can't socalize with you and you should not socialize with him" behavior (seen both  :()

But homeschooling by a family that realistically tries to find many outlets for their childrens development outside the home (sports, clubs, homeschool groups...YES, even with friendly protestants...ect) and uses the modern resources to outsource the education when ever they can, IF they need to...(online classes, DVD math programs ect) makes for a well rounded child.

Please dont paint Homeschooling with such a broad negative brush :)

Common sense stuff, here. One can raise kids to be agreeable to society at large while homeschooling all the while maintaining Grace. In my years now two traditional parishes, I have seen the good, bad and ugly when it comes to homeschooling.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 12:14:53 PM »

But homeschooling by a family that realistically tries to find many outlets for their childrens development outside the home (sports, clubs, homeschool groups...YES, even with friendly protestants...ect) and uses the modern resources to outsource the education when ever they can, IF they need to...(online classes, DVD math programs ect) makes for a well rounded child.

Yes, homeschooling CAN succeed in the cases of individual families. And for some families there aren't any other options, so they just have to do their best.

But we need to look as well at the broader picture of a Catholic society. Can we have a community of traditional Catholics where half the children are failing to get a basic education? 


Please dont paint Homeschooling with such a broad negative brush :)

It was traditional Catholic schooling that was being painted with a broad negative brush in this thread. Homeschooling was being portrayed as some sort of utopia in comparison.

I've had enough experience with traditional Catholic schools where parents finally give up on homeschooling and drop off their illiterate middle-school students and expect the school to compensate for years of educational neglect.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2018, 12:18:42 PM »

I went to 12 years of public school and I dont know my times tables  :cheeseheadbeer:

The problem is when people like that are making educational decisions for vulnerable children. It's okay to be uneducated, as long as one is humble enough to recognize that decisions on issues that require education need to be made by people who are qualified.
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2018, 12:34:08 PM »

I went to 12 years of public school and I dont know my times tables  :cheeseheadbeer:

The problem is when people like that are making educational decisions for vulnerable children. It's okay to be uneducated, as long as one is humble enough to recognize that decisions on issues that require education need to be made by people who are qualified.

About twelve or so years ago a homeschooling super mom got snarky with me, an English teacher of many years, as were discussing the natural progression of composition, i.e. writing skills in youngsters. Kinda put me off. Later on, her ten year old son was attempting to read an article in a hunting magazine; he couldn't do it. By that, I mean he could sound out words at a molasses-on-a-cold-plate pace, but clearly was unable to create meaning for himself. One encounters dip stickiness like this in homeschool circles. I want to find my daughter's "List O' Words" that I had her table in a spiral notebook. I think the Krakauer entries take up a third. I pretty much hammered reading and writing on themes and Catechism. My daughter is now a stay at home, but became a very successful and happy veterinary technician. It is like the RN for animals. 
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2018, 12:43:30 PM »

About twelve or so years ago a homeschooling super mom got snarky with me, an English teacher of many years, as were discussing the natural progression of composition, i.e. writing skills in youngsters. Kinda put me off. Later on, her ten year old son was attempting to read an article in a hunting magazine; he couldn't do it. By that, I mean he could sound out words at a molasses-on-a-cold-plate pace, but clearly was unable to create meaning for himself. One encounters dip stickiness like this in homeschool circles.

One of the issues which you highlight here is the descending social scale. The mother with a very good education whose child is unable to read. As has been discussed on other threads, this is increasingly widespread.

I think it's even worse in the traditional Protestant community. They never had much of an intellectual tradition to begin with, so when they move off-grid and decide to homeschool, they can fall pretty low.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2018, 01:05:22 PM »
The mother with a very good education whose child is unable to read.

This mother most assuredly had not "a very good education." Just whacky hubris. Needless to say, we are no longer acquaintances with this family. No idea whatever happened to their blossoming Tesla Aquinas superstars. As I said, this was some administrations ago.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2018, 01:42:19 PM »

This mother most assuredly had not "a very good education."

Ah, I see, the "English teacher of many years" was you and not the "homeschooling super mom."
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2018, 02:19:02 PM »

While I think homeschooling certainly does stack the deck in our favor, for my own family, it is definitely NOT. A magic bullet.  For my children or anyone else's. 

Another excellent point in your post.

I've seen so many children show up at traditional Catholic schools in 5th or 6th grade, virtually illiterate and innumerate. In the parents' obsession to protect the children from sin, they have protected them from life, including such aspects of life as reading and the times tables.

The only thing phonier than the statistics for NFP are the statistics for home schooling. Working-class parents who try to home-school is almost a certainty for educational failure. But I've seen many children with college-educated parents who struggle with the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic.

Home-schooling almost inevitably become no-schooling. Chaos reigns.

The family is not a perfect society (in the technical sense). "Swiss Family Robinson" is a false utopia. A single family is not capable of providing all the things necessary for survival -- neither the survival of the family itself, nor the survival of the race.


While I still stand by everything I said, this is not my personal anecdotal experiences with homeschooling at all.  The majority of what I've seen in my local homeschool community is very positive.  It is, in fact, what drew me to homeschool in the first place. 
 
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2018, 02:37:55 PM »

While I think homeschooling certainly does stack the deck in our favor, for my own family, it is definitely NOT. A magic bullet.  For my children or anyone else's. 

Another excellent point in your post.

I've seen so many children show up at traditional Catholic schools in 5th or 6th grade, virtually illiterate and innumerate. In the parents' obsession to protect the children from sin, they have protected them from life, including such aspects of life as reading and the times tables.

The only thing phonier than the statistics for NFP are the statistics for home schooling. Working-class parents who try to home-school is almost a certainty for educational failure. But I've seen many children with college-educated parents who struggle with the basics of reading and writing and arithmetic.

Home-schooling almost inevitably become no-schooling. Chaos reigns.

The family is not a perfect society (in the technical sense). "Swiss Family Robinson" is a false utopia. A single family is not capable of providing all the things necessary for survival -- neither the survival of the family itself, nor the survival of the race.
I think that no homeschooler who has been in the occupation for a long time (15 years here) will still think that unto themselves they can do it all....We know that that mentality leads to miserable children, or weird "holier than thou, I can't socalize with you and you should not socialize with him" behavior (seen both  :()

But homeschooling by a family that realistically tries to find many outlets for their childrens development outside the home (sports, clubs, homeschool groups...YES, even with friendly protestants...ect) and uses the modern resources to outsource the education when ever they can, IF they need to...(online classes, DVD math programs ect) makes for a well rounded child.

Please dont paint Homeschooling with such a broad negative brush :)

Common sense stuff, here. One can raise kids to be agreeable to society at large while homeschooling all the while maintaining Grace. In my years now two traditional parishes, I have seen the good, bad and ugly when it comes to homeschooling.


Indeed.  And, honestly, I think that if children turn out to be the way Max is painting them to be, then they're likely going to turn out that way no matter what.  I think it was in another thread that another poster said that family culture, more than how you educate your child, has an impact on your children more than anything else.  In other words, there is good, bad, and ugly in the Homeschool World.  There is good, bad, and ugly in the Traditional Catholic School world.  There is good, bad, and ugly in the Public School World.  It's more what goes on at home - whether they are there all day long or not - that really forms the child, and if they will rebel against the parents' principles or not.

I think two of the biggest keys in raising children is consistency and balance.  If you never let your child do anything for fear of the world, they're going to rebel....even if they are at the best Catholic school that money can afford.  It's like holding sand in your hand...squeeze it and it falls out; hold it gently, with palms open, and it stays with you.  Give your children the tools they need to fight the world, but don't expose them to so much of the world (in an effort to combat it) that they are allured by it's glitter and false promises of happiness. This can be done in both a homeschool setting AND a brick and mortar setting.  PRAY, PRAY, and PRAY some more for God to show you the right path for your child's education, and He absolutely will.  Whether or not homeschooling is the ideal or not, doesn't really matter, if that is the path God is calling you to.  I have zero doubt that we are meant to homeschool our children.  I am at complete and utter peace about it (as is my husband).  That doesn't make it easy or without challenge.  That doesn't make it the right choice for EVERY family.  It just means this is very likely God's plan for our family at this point in time.  It could very well change, though I doubt it, and that is why we pray often to know God's Will.  "Lord, we just want to do what is holy and best for our family's salvation.  Show us how to do that, we beg of You."   

I have mixed feelings about whether or not homeschooling is "the" ideal...in today's day and age, I think it probably is, given the disaster that society is; from a bigger world view, it probably isn't.  I think the ideal of ideals would be a cooperative education between priests/nuns as teachers; supported, scaffolded, and encouraged by parents at home. 
 
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Offline Traditionallyruralmom

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Re: St Mary's KS sspx
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2018, 04:45:33 PM »

I went to 12 years of public school and I dont know my times tables  :cheeseheadbeer:

The problem is when people like that are making educational decisions for vulnerable children. It's okay to be uneducated, as long as one is humble enough to recognize that decisions on issues that require education need to be made by people who are qualified.
I am "people like that" because I don't know my times tables, and am therefore uneducated?  Or am i misunderstanding what you are saying?
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.