Author Topic: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.  (Read 1163 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2018, 09:45:57 AM »
Some may think me too harsh, but apart from the fact that Islamism is responsible for persecuting 100s of millions of Christians today, hear this from Ayatollah Khomeini, "“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]…. Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for the Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Qur’anic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all this mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.”

Moreover, it seems prophetically and demographically certain that this 21st century will be defined by a global conflict between Christianity and Islamism. It's up to us to ensure as many Muslims as possible come to Christ and are delivered from Mohammed before then. We hear reports of millions of Muslim converts in Africa and some regions of the Middle East and we have reason to believe God has not given up on those misled by the infidel Mohammed. Bp. Sheen was also always of the opinion that Our Lady of Fatima would play a special role in bringing Muslims to Her Son. The town of Fatima has a long history - suffice to say a Muslim woman fell in love with a Christian prince and his religion and became a baptized Catholic, then he named the town after her - and Our Lady's choice of Fatima - like that of Guadalupe - was no accident.

Let us love our Muslims friends in the love of Jesus Christ and offer His Precious Blood to the eternal Father in atonement for all sins and errors, and that they may come to Baptism and new Life in Christ.

Quote from: Vetus
I would add two things

Well, AI has a good article on this: "it is the rather explicit teaching of the Quran that Muhammad performed no supernatural, verifiable miracles apart from the inspiration that he received. The Quran in several places emphatically negates the idea of Muhammad performing physical feats such as raising the dead, healing the sick, opening physically blind eyes etc. We present those citations here in order for our readers to see for themselves the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous."

https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Azmy/mhd_miracles.htm

St. Damascene already attests this, from the first or second generation of Muslims. They had seen Mohammed perform no miracle at all, certainly not a public one. He had not shown them a single prophesy from the Old or New Testaments referring to himself, though he was the false prophet whose place is in the lake of fire. He led countless millions astray and was a desperately wicked man, likely a deliberate deceiver.

Some of these things are mentioned in the medieval work, the Golden Legend. It has a section on the life of Mohammed and his deceit. It mentions Sergius whom you spoke of.

St. Thomas contrasts Christ and Mohammed: what is more, as the Golden Legend notes, the Quran contradicts itself by claiming Jesus not only worked miracles, but even created a bird by breathing the Breath of Life into it - something only God can do, and as God in fact created Adam. Mohammed took this from an apocryphal Christian Gospel and didn't realize its Christological implications. So here we have another refutation of Islamism. Finally, Mohammed foolishly calls Christ the Word - another plainly Christological title, as anyone who has read John 1 will know. The Word is uncreated and God made all things by the Word
 
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For these “secrets of divine Wisdom” (Job 11:6) the divine Wisdom itself, which knows all things to the full, has deigned to reveal to men. It reveals its own presence, as well as the truth of its teaching and inspiration, by fitting arguments; and in order to confirm those truths that exceed natural knowledge, it gives visible manifestation to works that surpass the ability of all nature. Thus, there are the wonderful cures of illnesses, there is the raising of the dead, and the wonderful immutation in the heavenly bodies; and what is more wonderful, there is the inspiration given to human minds, so that simple and untutored persons, filled with the gift of the Holy Spirit, come to possess instantaneously the highest wisdom and the readiest eloquence.
When these arguments were examined, through the efficacy of the abovementioned proof, and not the violent assault of arms or the promise of pleasure, and (what is most wonderful of all) in the midst of the tyranny of the persecutors, an innumerable throng of people, both simple and most learned, flocked to the Christian faith. In this faith there are truths preached that surpass every human intellect; the pleasures of the flesh are curbed; it is taught that the things of the world should be spurned. Now, for the minds of mortal men to assent to these things is the greatest of miracles, just as it is a manifest work of divine inspiration that, spurning visible things, men should seek only what is invisible.
Now, that this has happened neither without preparation nor by chance, but as a result of the disposition of God, is clear from the fact that through many pronouncements of the ancient prophets God had foretold that He would do this. The books of these prophets are held in veneration among us Christians, since they give witness to our faith.
[2] The manner of this confirmation is touched on by St. Paul: “Which,” that is, human salvation, “having begun to be declared by the Lord, was confirmed to us by them that hear Him: God also bearing them witness of signs, and wonders, and divers miracles, and distributions of the Holy Spirit” (Heb. 7:3-4).
[3] This wonderful conversion of the world to the Christian faith is the clearest witness of the signs given in the past; so that it is not necessary that they should be further repeated, since they appear most clearly in their effect. For it would be truly more wonderful than all signs if the world had been led by simple and humble men to believe such lofty truths, to accomplish such difficult actions, and to have such high hopes. Yet it is also a fact that, even in our own time, God does not cease to work miracles through His saints for the confirmation of the faith.
[4] On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2018, 08:57:50 PM »
Quote from: Vetus
I would add two things

Well, AI has a good article on this: "it is the rather explicit teaching of the Quran that Muhammad performed no supernatural, verifiable miracles apart from the inspiration that he received. The Quran in several places emphatically negates the idea of Muhammad performing physical feats such as raising the dead, healing the sick, opening physically blind eyes etc. We present those citations here in order for our readers to see for themselves the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous."

https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Azmy/mhd_miracles.htm

St. Damascene already attests this, from the first or second generation of Muslims. They had seen Mohammed perform no miracle at all, certainly not a public one. He had not shown them a single prophesy from the Old or New Testaments referring to himself, though he was the false prophet whose place is in the lake of fire. He led countless millions astray and was a desperately wicked man, likely a deliberate deceiver.

This is a bit irrelevant to the point I was making, I'm afraid.

Sunni Islam is not defined or refuted by picking quotes from the Qur'an. The Qur'an and the Hadiths work hand in hand in what is a complex system of jurisprudence and theology.

Muhammad is believed to have performed miracles and this is attested to in Islamic sacred literature. When refuting Islam, you have to deal with its sources in a consistent manner and engage in sound exegesis. It takes a bit of work and patience. Quoting a few koranic verses, hoping that this alone will disprove their claim, is pointless. A simple reading of the major traditional tafsirs, for instance, will show you that Islamic theologians have dealt with the issue of Muhammad's miracles centuries ago. Whether in a satisfactory manner or not is up to the critic to demonstrate. The AI's article you shared is remarkably weak: it quotes a single Hadith from Bukhari about the famous splitting of the moon without making reference to how Muslim scholars have interpreted this miracle without contradicting the above koranic quotes cited.

Generally speaking, Islam holds that Muhammad performed many miracles, as I listed previously. However, in the eyes of the Quraysh and the Jews of Arabia, these miracles were nothing more than magic, "Again the sign of the moon splitting was shown to them but they just called it magic." (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir), so they kept on demanding specific signs. According to Islamic doctrine, these specific signs were rejected by Allah, confronting them instead with the koranic revelation, as in the verses quoted by the AI article. In any case, this does not logically exclude that no miraculous signs whatsoever were shown to them apart from the Qur'an during Muhammad's life time, something the Hadith literature specifically records as historically true.

St. Thomas contrasts Christ and Mohammed...

Interesting comments but somewhat immaterial to the second point I made in response to your assertion: namely, that Islam presents a far lesser view of Christ than Arianism ever had, so it is incorrect to call it a revival of Arianism. Unitarianism, for instance, is much closer to Arianism than Islam ever was and can more adequately be considered a revival of that old heresy.
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Offline mikemac

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2018, 10:53:06 AM »
Many seem to wrongly believe that Sufism is the peaceful side of Islam, but that is far from the truth according to this report.

Sufism - The Real and Violent History
http://www.kamakotimandali.com/blog/index.php?p=1417&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

This site claims that the "miracles" that the Sufis were suppose to have performed didn't happen, but were fabrications spread after Islam conquered those areas of India by the sword.
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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2018, 10:26:59 PM »
Xavier,

I'm sorry to resurrect this thread but I happened to bump into a useful video that discusses the miracles attributed to Muhammad in standard Islamic theology. It's worthwhile to watch the whole video to get a good grasp of the issues at hand but the section detailing a few renowned miracles, starting with the famous splitting of the moon, occurs at 44:40.

Sheikh Mumtaz is a Hanafi scholar so this is pretty traditional Islamic theology.

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Offline Xavier

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2018, 07:50:08 AM »
Yes, Mike. I think that's likely. St. John Damascene, a great Doctor of the Church who was born just about a century after mr. Mohammed, is witness that the Muslims of his time had not seen Mohammed perform visible miracles in their sight.

1.Thanks, Vetus. When were the Hadees written? I think some 150-200 years after Mohammed. Thus, it is very probable that - having faced clear refutation of Mohammed's alleged prophethood like that of St. John's, red faced and embarassed about an alleged prophet who could not do the things their own book witnesses that Jesus Christ could do - at some later date, non-eyewitnesses added a few chimerical events.

This is completely different from the miracles worked by Jesus Christ, attested by eyewitnesses like His Apostles, and others of that generation like Pilate, Rabbis Saul and Gamaliel, and Josephus, and still visible on the Shroud of Turin etc beside the Eucharistic miracles the Lord dwelling among us in His Eucharist works and has always worked throughout Church history.

I should note many Muslims continue to come to Christ today feeling Muhammed is inferior to Jesus for the reason mentioned by AI.

I have a question for you: do you believe Muslims (and Jews and pagans etc) can be saved without becoming Catholic and believing in Christ? If memory serves, you do not; but I want to confirm.

2. On prophesy: Similarly, he did not point even to one specific prophesy of the Bible (compare this to how Christ our God demonstrated perfect knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures, proved the Messiah was divine from the Prophets, and amazed all the doctors of the law with His Wisdom, even though, from a human point of view, He could not have attained this knowledge) which he even allegedly fulfilled. St. John specifically notes this and writes the Muslims of his day found this fact embarrassing. Of course, he wasn't trying to embarass them but trying to help them break the chains of the false prophet and come to salvation in Jesus Christ. Compare the below, for e.g., where Jesus proves from the Psalms of David (psa 109, in particular) that the Messiah will not just be some human person (as Muslims also think) but the Son of God and the Lord of David.

Mat 22:41 "And the Pharisees being gathered together, Jesus asked them,
22:42  Saying: What think you of Christ? Whose son is he? They say to him: David's.
22:43  He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:
22:44  The Lord said to my Lord: Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool?
22:45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
22:46  And no man was able to answer him a word: neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions."

And this is what St. Thomas, building on the teaching of the Damascene, explains and proves when he says divine inspiration is proven by visible signs like miracles and prophecies.

In conclusion, again, this is not to be meant to be harsh, but only an urgent reminder of our need to evangelize Muslims and others much more.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:51:43 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

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Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Lepanto and Islamist persecution of 100s of millions of Christians today.
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2018, 08:31:59 PM »
Thanks, Vetus. When were the Hadees written? I think some 150-200 years after Mohammed. Thus, it is very probable that - having faced clear refutation of Mohammed's alleged prophethood like that of St. John's, red faced and embarassed about an alleged prophet who could not do the things their own book witnesses that Jesus Christ could do - at some later date, non-eyewitnesses added a few chimerical events.

The first written collection of Hadith literature is the famous Muwatta of Imam Malik. I believe it was written about 160 years after the Hegira, that is to say, about 150 years after Muhammad's death.

Now, while it is very much possible that there were fabrications inserted into this vast collection of narrations, a task definitely compiled by Bukhari et al. a few years after Imam Malik, this seems too simple an explanation to refute the accounts of miracles themselves. The prophetic teachings of Muhammad were kept and followed closely by his companions, the Sahaba, and their companions, the Tabiun. This early Muslim community, relying on oral tradition for the preservation of the Hadiths and the Qur'an, was very much akin to the Jewish culture that preserved the Old and the New Testament texts. With so many cross-referenced information to rely on by the people of Medina, Mecca, Syria, Persia, Iraq, etc., that either personally knew Muhammad or knew his companions, and whilst making sure to proof-test the validity of the chain of narrators themselves, it is unlikely that Imam Malik and others were able to successfully concoct a major forgery that resulted in hundreds of narrations of miracles, when there was none to be heard of prior to the Muwatta.

The most likely explanation is that there were, in fact, narrations of miracles by Muhammad present since the inception of Islam.

I have a question for you: do you believe Muslims (and Jews and pagans etc) can be saved without becoming Catholic and believing in Christ? If memory serves, you do not; but I want to confirm.

I favor the view that explicit belief in Jesus Christ is the normative means whereby anyone can be saved. As far as implicit belief in Christ, considered here as an extraordinary means, I'm willing to grant that there may be some circumstances in which God could save a person without explicit belief in the savior of the human race. However, this is an obscure matter that no-one can actually know with certainty, so pontificating about it seems ultimately useless. God alone knows His own and will call them accordingly and infallibly. This much I confess: Christ is the sole means of salvation (Acts 4:12) and the Church is His mystical body. I'll leave it like that.

On prophesy: Similarly, he did not point even to one specific prophesy of the Bible (compare this to how Christ our God demonstrated perfect knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures, proved the Messiah was divine from the Prophets, and amazed all the doctors of the law with His Wisdom, even though, from a human point of view, He could not have attained this knowledge) which he even allegedly fulfilled. St. John specifically notes this and writes the Muslims of his day found this fact embarrassing.

Actually, Muhammad is traditionally believed to have been prophesied about in the Bible. Muslim theologians typically have offered Deuteronomy 18:18 and 32:2, Isaiah 29:11-12 and 42 as proof, as well as the Paraclete passages in John 14, 15 and 16. Keep in mind, though, that Muslims do not hold to the inerrancy of our biblical texts. The whole Bible is read exclusively through Koranic lenses, the Qur'an alone being the furqan (criterion) that distinguishes the corrupt biblical passages from the sound ones.
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