Author Topic: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA  (Read 233 times)

Offline Philip G.

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Thanked: 59 times
  • Ordinary Cultus
  • Religion: Catholic
Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« on: September 13, 2018, 12:13:00 AM »
Back in 2010 I think, the USA bishops changed its english translations of the NO mass.  At the same time, did they also change kneeling rubrics(when to kneel vs when to stand)?  Because, I have seen a quality popular NO missal(OSV) pre 2010 changes, and the rubrics of that missal indicate to kneel before the agnus dei.  In the same company's missal(OSV) post 2010, it indicates to kneel after the agnus dei, but before the "behold the lamb of God". 

So, was that kneeling rubric a 2010 change?  And, does that mean that Paul VI's NO kneels before the agnus dei, along with the rest of the NO world(if they are faithful to the rite), and that the usa officially does something different by kneeling after the agnus dei?
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - habacuc 2,11-12
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline Prayerful

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 6064
  • Thanked: 2526 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 06:03:39 PM »
Seems so.
Padre Pio: Pray, hope, and don't worry. Worry is useless. God is merciful and will hear your prayer.
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline The Harlequin King

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3280
  • Thanked: 838 times
    • Modern Medievalism
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 12:10:42 AM »
I actually don't recall the NO ever specifying that the congregation kneels during the Agnus Dei. The NO Missal allows national bishops' conferences to determine when to kneel at this point, and so the the American bishops decided the norm would be to kneel after the Agnus Dei is finished.

For the TLM, it's worth mentioning that kneeling during the Agnus Dei is simply an American custom. The rubrics for the liturgical choir have the choir (including clergy-in-choir, not necessarily the singers) stand during the Agnus Dei. They then kneel for the second Confiteor and the Ecce if they intend to receive Communion, but stand if they don't (in practice, everyone just kneels together regardless). Some liturgical books like O'Connell's The Celebration of Mass would have the congregation adopt the in-choir postures, including standing during the Agnus Dei.

Hope this helps.
 

Offline Philip G.

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 108
  • Thanked: 59 times
  • Ordinary Cultus
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 01:13:38 PM »
I actually don't recall the NO ever specifying that the congregation kneels during the Agnus Dei. The NO Missal allows national bishops' conferences to determine when to kneel at this point, and so the the American bishops decided the norm would be to kneel after the Agnus Dei is finished.

For the TLM, it's worth mentioning that kneeling during the Agnus Dei is simply an American custom. The rubrics for the liturgical choir have the choir (including clergy-in-choir, not necessarily the singers) stand during the Agnus Dei. They then kneel for the second Confiteor and the Ecce if they intend to receive Communion, but stand if they don't (in practice, everyone just kneels together regardless). Some liturgical books like O'Connell's The Celebration of Mass would have the congregation adopt the in-choir postures, including standing during the Agnus Dei.

Hope this helps.

I am aware of the Modus of the new rite.  There is language in the new rite to accommodate anyone's interpretation, aspiration, or devotion.
 Despite that, there is a roman rite of the NO.  I guess it is easier to ask, what do they do in Rome?  BTW, I have heard that in Rome/italy some priests have been saying the old offertory within the context of the new rite.  This was told me by a franciscan friar of the immaculate about a year ago. 
For the stone shall cry out of the wall; and the timber that is between the joints of the building, shall answer.  Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and prepareth a city by iniquity. - habacuc 2,11-12
 

Offline Gardener

  • Drink the poison yourself.
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Hauptmann
  • ****
  • Posts: 7532
  • Thanked: 4620 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 01:59:21 PM »
I actually don't recall the NO ever specifying that the congregation kneels during the Agnus Dei. The NO Missal allows national bishops' conferences to determine when to kneel at this point, and so the the American bishops decided the norm would be to kneel after the Agnus Dei is finished.

For the TLM, it's worth mentioning that kneeling during the Agnus Dei is simply an American custom. The rubrics for the liturgical choir have the choir (including clergy-in-choir, not necessarily the singers) stand during the Agnus Dei. They then kneel for the second Confiteor and the Ecce if they intend to receive Communion, but stand if they don't (in practice, everyone just kneels together regardless). Some liturgical books like O'Connell's The Celebration of Mass would have the congregation adopt the in-choir postures, including standing during the Agnus Dei.

Hope this helps.

Might be a good thread to go on a little more of a rant (appreciated) about how the TLM actually has very little in the way of rubrics for the laity.

I giggle a little when people get bent about "at the NO I was dragged to they didn't do X at Y time!" uh huh...
"And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we are ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?" - St. Maximilian Kolbe
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline The Harlequin King

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3280
  • Thanked: 838 times
    • Modern Medievalism
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 04:40:00 PM »
I am aware of the Modus of the new rite.  There is language in the new rite to accommodate anyone's interpretation, aspiration, or devotion.
 Despite that, there is a roman rite of the NO.  I guess it is easier to ask, what do they do in Rome?  BTW, I have heard that in Rome/italy some priests have been saying the old offertory within the context of the new rite.  This was told me by a franciscan friar of the immaculate about a year ago.

I could be wrong, but I'd guess that in Rome for the NO, they basically kneel only for the first part of the Eucharistic Prayer up to the elevation of the chalice. The TLM in Rome (and for the in-choir rubrics generally) doesn't actually have much more kneeling than that. The in-choir rubrics have one kneel for the prayers at the foot of the altar until the Kyrie (not the Gloria), then the first half of the Canon, then the second Confiteor/Communion if one plans to receive, and finally the blessing after the end of Mass. That's it. Irish-American custom adds a few more kneeling spots. I recall reading somewhere that Charles DeGaulle caused a stir when he went to a Mass in the US and stood after the elevation of the chalice when everyone else kept kneeling.
 
The following users thanked this post: Philip G.

Offline martin88nyc

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2885
  • Thanked: 1758 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 05:02:39 PM »
I actually don't recall the NO ever specifying that the congregation kneels during the Agnus Dei. The NO Missal allows national bishops' conferences to determine when to kneel at this point, and so the the American bishops decided the norm would be to kneel after the Agnus Dei is finished.

For the TLM, it's worth mentioning that kneeling during the Agnus Dei is simply an American custom. The rubrics for the liturgical choir have the choir (including clergy-in-choir, not necessarily the singers) stand during the Agnus Dei. They then kneel for the second Confiteor and the Ecce if they intend to receive Communion, but stand if they don't (in practice, everyone just kneels together regardless). Some liturgical books like O'Connell's The Celebration of Mass would have the congregation adopt the in-choir postures, including standing during the Agnus Dei.

Hope this helps.

I am aware of the Modus of the new rite.  There is language in the new rite to accommodate anyone's interpretation, aspiration, or devotion.
 Despite that, there is a roman rite of the NO.  I guess it is easier to ask, what do they do in Rome?  BTW, I have heard that in Rome/italy some priests have been saying the old offertory within the context of the new rite.  This was told me by a franciscan friar of the immaculate about a year ago.
Cardinal Sarah wanted to replace the NO offertory with the old one. I guess this would at least restore to a degree the sacraficial aspect of the Mass in NO. In my opinion this is a very good suggestion and could gear many conservatives toward TLM. But there are "liberal" factions that hate the idea. NO could be fixed to an extent but then again why not just copy what the "Anglican" Catholics do. The ordinariate rite is basically TLM in vernacular.
"These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world." John 16:33
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline VeraeFidei

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2341
  • Thanked: 232 times
  • Religion: Catholic
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 10:00:30 PM »
I actually don't recall the NO ever specifying that the congregation kneels during the Agnus Dei. The NO Missal allows national bishops' conferences to determine when to kneel at this point, and so the the American bishops decided the norm would be to kneel after the Agnus Dei is finished.

For the TLM, it's worth mentioning that kneeling during the Agnus Dei is simply an American custom. The rubrics for the liturgical choir have the choir (including clergy-in-choir, not necessarily the singers) stand during the Agnus Dei. They then kneel for the second Confiteor and the Ecce if they intend to receive Communion, but stand if they don't (in practice, everyone just kneels together regardless). Some liturgical books like O'Connell's The Celebration of Mass would have the congregation adopt the in-choir postures, including standing during the Agnus Dei.

Hope this helps.
HK, correctly me if a I am wrong, but the salient point here is the principle of standing while singing, correct?
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison

Offline The Harlequin King

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3280
  • Thanked: 838 times
    • Modern Medievalism
Re: Question about the Novus Ordo rubrics in the USA
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2018, 12:43:34 PM »
HK, correctly me if a I am wrong, but the salient point here is the principle of standing while singing, correct?

You are correct, that's a big role. Even in the TLM, if the whole congregation sings the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, there's no question that they should remain standing throughout (and not sit during the Gloria and Credo). There's some argument about what to do if the choir alone sings. But to give an example, I sat in-choir for the huge pontifical TLM with Archbishop Sample at the National Shrine in DC earlier this year. We kinda de facto let the Institute canons on each side of the chancel take the lead on postures. Even though the Sanctus was polyphonic, I think we stood until they finished singing, and then rose again after the elevation of the chalice. So, in addition to all the other rules mentioned above, the only prolonged kneeling period for those in-choir was the people's Communion.
 
The following users thanked this post: Christe Eleison, Philip G.