Author Topic: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.  (Read 369 times)

Offline Vetus Ordo

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 09:19:09 AM »
Thank you.  Do you have any Catholic sources that teach that St. Jerome learned the meaning of the OT from rabbis?  The sources you provided are Jewish (Marcel Simon, JVL, JE).  The potentially non-Jewish source provided (Mr. Hood) merely states that he learned Hebrew from them, which is irrelevant.

The sources I took the time to quote for you are reputable scholarly endeavors that have been made available to the general public. If you paid attention to the information provided, the Jewish Encyclopedia cites St. Jerome's own works regarding his use of Jewish exegesis. For instance, the JE quotes him directly on his commentary on Joel 4:11 as stating that he would follow in that matter the opinion of the Jews, meaning the rabbis under whom he studied: nobis autem Hebrĉorum opinionem sequentibus.

However, if you are not satisfied with the historical material presented in these sources, you can look for other authors. This is not an obscure matter, there is plenty of material out there.

Quote
I am interested to know if there are great Catholic saints whom turned to rabbis to learn the meaning of Scripture.

Yes, St. Jerome. Origen did the same.
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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 08:07:51 AM »
The Catholic Church owes a tremendous debt to good St. Jerome, who ensured, with the approval of Pope St. Damasus and the Holy Roman Church in his time, later confirmed by the Council of Trent, the superiority of the Vulgate to all other extant versions, and thus saw to it that Christians would not in future have to depend on unbelieving Jews for better understanding of the Old Testament Scriptures. Nevertheless, Christian scholarship and researchers who more carefully study the Greek and Hebrew texts, for the benefit of the Church, are very greatly to be encouraged. St. Jerome was one such Bible Scholar and the greatest.

In 2 Thess 2:12-16, St. Paul refutes Sola Scriptura by teaching the Church is to hold firmly both to Sacred Scripture handed down by letter, and to Apostolic Tradition handed down by word, "12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth:13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,16 Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word."


Some examples of Apostolic Tradition:

1, The Liturgy handed down by Bishop St. James of Jerusalem to the Church there: "The Priest. Let all mortal flesh be silent, and stand with fear and trembling, and meditate nothing earthly within itself:—

For the King of kings and Lord of lords, Christ our God, comes forward to be sacrificed, and to be given for food to the faithful; and the bands of angels go before Him with every power and dominion, the many-eyed cherubim, and the six-winged seraphim, covering their faces, and crying aloud the hymn, Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0717.htm

2. The Liturgy handed down by Patriarch St. Mark of Alexandria, disciple of St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, to the Church:"We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to You, O Lord; for great is Your name among all peoples, and in all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Your holy name." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm Read carefully and you will catch that it is a quote from Mal 1:11 about Holy Mass.

The Protestants could never understand how all these Liturgies handed down by the Apostles, and all the Churches, rejected their ideas.

Protestants reject the doctrine, already taught clearly by Christ Our Lord, in the very words of institution, that Holy Mass is to be a true and proper Sacrifice of His Body and His Blood, for otherwise we are not redeemed, and a new covenant has not been instituted, since even the Old covenant was instituted in actual blood, though only of a creature, not the Lord and Lamb of God Himself. It is also taught in Mal 1:11, by St. Paul in 1 Cor 5, then again in 10 and 11, and by all Apostolic Tradition universally and preserved by all the Churches.

Sola Scriptura is just an excuse for a pure naturalism that refuses to believe the Lord's Word that, as God, by saying "Let there be light" made light, so also God, by saying "This is My Body" and "This is the Chalice of My Blood ..." made it His Body and His Blood, for the Word of God cannot fail in its effect, nor can God declare something to be such without making it so; as He made all things by His Word. The Catholic Church stands with St. Peter, the First Pope, who for our Church answered in John Chapter 6 after the high Eucharistical Theology taught in the Bread of Life Discourse, that the Lord Jesus alone had the Words of Eternal Life, and they the holy Apostles would not leave, as the faithless disciples had left. And St. Thomas too says most admirably, concerning this most excellent Mystery of Faith, the Holy Eucharist "I believe all the Son of God has said; nothing is Truer than Truth's own Word."
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 09:04:54 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

Daily Morning Offering: O my God, in union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary,  I offer Thee the Precious Blood of Jesus from all the Altars  throughout the world, joining with It the offering of my every thought, word, and action of this day. I desire to gain every Indulgence and Merit I can, offering them, together with myself, to Mary Immaculate, Whom Thou hast appointed the dispenser of the merits of Thy Precious Blood, especially by means of this Scapular  [Here kiss your Brown Scapular] that She may best apply them to the interests of Thy Most Sacred Heart. Amen.

Consecration to Our Blessed Mother: My Queen, my Mother! I give myself entirely to Thee, and to show my devotion to Thee I consecrate to Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve, Wherefore, good Mother, as I am Thine own, keep me, guard me, as Thy property and possession." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/morning-offering.htm

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Offline LaybrotherDoug

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Implications of transubstantiation
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2019, 07:44:22 PM »
Reply to preceding item. My contributions on this forum are not frequent. To avoid wearing out my welcome, I'll confine myself pretty much to asking a follow-up question...

Xavier wrote on 12/12:
"Sola Scriptura is just an excuse for a pure naturalism that refuses to believe the Lord's Word..."

Is this Paul's viee, as a missionary? Consider Romans 10:2. He certainly doesn't seem to be thinking that all Jewish rejectors of the Gospel are refusing to believe out of pure naturalism. Pure naturalists can hardly have an uninstructed zeal for God.

But I wish to understand better what, practically, you mean.

Among your texts cited in proof of transubstantiation, you give John 6. I would gladly see not merely a transubstantiation explanation of 6:32-33, but one that includes the entire chapter. Consider 6:51, 58:
I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world...
This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever.

(Me again). Is the Lord teaching that all communicants be saved? If I believed transubstantiation, I would find that consequence hard to avoid.

But I don't think any church in Christendom thinks that all communicants will be saved - in spite of that being an extremely literalistic reading of 6:51, 58 and similar places.
 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2019, 08:09:10 PM »
It must be read in unity with all scriptural Eucharistic teaching.

To read John 6 without reading it in relation to 1 Cor 11 will lead to error in this regard.

For example, read St. Augustine’s commentary on John 6:

Quote
AUGUSTINE. (de Verb. Dom.) As for those, as indeed there are many, who either eat that flesh and drink that blood hypocritically, or, who having eaten, become apostates, do they dwell in Christ, and Christ in them? Nay, but there is a certain mode of eating that flesh, and drinking that blood, in the which he that eateth and drinketh, dwelleth in Christ, and Christ in him.

AUGUSTINE. (de Civ. Dei, l. xxi. c. 25) That is to say, such an one eateth the body and drinketh the blood of Christ not in the sacramental sense, but in reality.
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Re: Origen destroys sola scriptura in one paragraph.
« Reply #19 on: Today at 08:22:30 AM »
Hi LaybrotherDoug. Welcome.

It's wonderful to have a healthy reverence for Sacred Scripture. The problem arises only when there is contempt of Apostolic Tradition or of the Magisterium of the Church. In Scripture itself, there are directions to uphold Apostolic Tradition handed down orally and to listen to the Church (see Mat 18:17 for e.g.). So, we know all three go together. Likewise, Tradition tells us always to revere Scripture, and the Church to receive both.

Yes, indeed, all of John Chapter 6 indicates Jesus is going to give His Christian people more miraculous Bread than Moses gave Israel of old; Moses gave them manna to feed their body. What is this miraculous Bread of Jesus? The Holy Eucharist, His True Body and His Precious Blood, to feed our souls and give them eternal life. Please read: "In these words He shows the superiority of this bread to the manna of the Old Testament, calling it the "true bread from Heaven," and saying that it possesses such wonderful efficacy as to give life to the world. The Jews, hearing of such a wonderful kind of bread, said to Him: "Lord, give us this bread always." (John 6:34). Whereupon, He replied: "I am the bread of life; your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and died. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from Heaven; if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread that I will give is My flesh for the life of the world." (John 6:52) "He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood, hath life everlasting, and I will raise him up on the last day.

For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh My blood abideth in Me and I in him." (John 6:55-57) His disciples hearing this, said: "This saying is hard, and who can hear it." (John 6:61) Jesus, knowing that His disciples murmured at this, said to them: "Doth this scandalize you?" (John 6:62) Observe, He does not say you are mistaken; you do not understand Me. No, on the contrary, He insists still more on the necessity of eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood: "Amen, amen, I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you." "Many of His disciples," continues the Evangelist, "hearing this, went away and walked no more with Him."

Jesus, seeing that they would not believe that He was to give them His Flesh and Blood as food for their souls, suffered them to go away offended, and when they were gone, He said to the Twelve: "Will ye also go away?" Then Simon Peter answered in the name of all: "Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and know that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God." (John 6:68-70) Remark the noble simplicity of the Apostles' faith. http://www.catholictradition.org/Eucharist/blessed-eucharist1.htm

To your question, it is Catholic teaching that the Holy Eucharist produces final perseverance. The more often we devoutly receive Holy Communion, the less and less we will be attached to the things of the world, the more and more we will love God and think of His Sacrifice, and finally we will be "confirmed and grace" and unlikely to fall into mortal sin any more. Thus, for e.g. the Sacred Heart of Jesus, if you're aware of that, promised final perseverance in grace to all Catholics who would receive Holy Communion on 9 First Fridays. The Church also applies those words to the Final Viaticum, i.e. Holy Communion in the hour of death, which She encourages all the faithful to receive along with Her last rites. Catholics who receive the last rites well and Viaticum devoutly will surely be saved. St. Alphonsus mentions other reasons, Holy Communion remits venial sins, is necessary for spiritual growth etc "The Communion is called the bread of heaven; because as the body cannot live without earthly food, so the soul cannot live without this celestial bread. Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you (John, vi, 54). But on the other hand, to those who frequently eat this bread, is promised eternal life. If any man eat of this bread he shall live forever (John, vi, 52). Hence the Council of Trent calls the Communion a medicine which delivers us from venial, and preserves us from mortal sins (Sess. 13, cap. 2)."http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2017/06/17/final-perseverance-preparation-death-considerations-xxxi/

Please read 1 Cor 10 and 11: I. "I Cor 10:16 "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?"

II. 1 Cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

St. Paul subsequently says if we eat without discerning the body, we may become guilty of the Lord's Blood. How would you understand that? If the Apostle says we are to discern the Body when we eat, isn't it clear it is the Lord's True Body we have communion with? If he says we are guilty of the Lord's Blood otherwise, can it be that Holy Communion is just a symbol? Also the preceding chapter is clear.

God bless.

« Last Edit: Today at 08:24:52 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 5500+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

Daily Morning Offering: O my God, in union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary,  I offer Thee the Precious Blood of Jesus from all the Altars  throughout the world, joining with It the offering of my every thought, word, and action of this day. I desire to gain every Indulgence and Merit I can, offering them, together with myself, to Mary Immaculate, Whom Thou hast appointed the dispenser of the merits of Thy Precious Blood, especially by means of this Scapular  [Here kiss your Brown Scapular] that She may best apply them to the interests of Thy Most Sacred Heart. Amen.

Consecration to Our Blessed Mother: My Queen, my Mother! I give myself entirely to Thee, and to show my devotion to Thee I consecrate to Thee this day, my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve, Wherefore, good Mother, as I am Thine own, keep me, guard me, as Thy property and possession." http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/morning-offering.htm

"I am the Lady of the Rosary. Pray the Rosary (i.e. 15 decades; 5 decades is a part of the Rosary) every day to obtain Peace for the World." ~ Our Lady of the Rosary of Fatima.