Author Topic: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.  (Read 775 times)

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Dr. Walt Brown has many excellent articles and videos, as well as an online book, explaining in detail the reasons multiple lines of evidence point to the fact that there were once multiple plates of water - hydroplates - beneath the earth's crust. We can discuss the pros and cons of this theory and its explanatory scope and power in this thread. One obvious pro is its full conformity with the Sacred Scriptures.

Without further ado, let Dr. Brown explain in his own words,

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview2.html

Quote
The Hydroplate Theory: An Overview

New evidence shows that the earth has experienced a devastating, worldwide flood, whose waters violently burst forth from under earth’s crust. Standard “textbook” explanations for many of earth’s major features are scientifically flawed. We can now explain, using well-understood phenomena, how this cataclysmic event rapidly formed so many features. These and other mysteries, listed below and briefly described in the next 11 pages, are best explained by an earthshaking event, far more catastrophic than almost anyone has imagined. Entire chapters are devoted to the italicized topics listed below.
The Grand Canyon (pages 219–252)
Mid-Oceanic Ridge
Earth’s Major Components
Oceanic Trenches, Earthquakes, and the Ring of Fire (pages 157–194)
Magnetic Variations on the Ocean Floor
Submarine Canyons
Coal and Oil
Methane Hydrates
Ice Age
Frozen Mammoths (pages 271–301)
Major Mountain Ranges
Overthrusts
Volcanoes and Lava
Geothermal Heat
Strata and Layered Fossils (pages 199–216)
Limestone (pages 263–268)
Metamorphic Rock
Plateaus
The Moho and Black Smokers
Salt Domes
Jigsaw Fit of the Continents
Changing Axis Tilt
Comets (pages 305–340)
Asteroids, Meteoroids and TNOs (pages 343–387)
Earth’s Radioactivity (pages 389–443)
Each appears to be a consequence of a sudden, unrepeatable event: a global flood whose waters erupted from interconnected, worldwide subterranean chambers with a directed energy release—focused upward—that exceeded the explosion of trillions of hydrogen bombs.1 The hydroplate theory, explained later in this chapter, will resolve all these mysteries. 
But first, what is a hydroplate? Before the global flood, an ocean of water was under earth’s crust. Pressure increases in this subterranean water ruptured that crust, breaking it into plates. The escaping water flooded the earth. Because hydro means water, those crustal plates will be called hydroplates. Where and why they broke, how they moved, and hundreds of other details and evidence—all consistent with the laws of physics—explain so many of earth’s major features and constitute the hydroplate theory.
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING: "My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby Offer my whole Life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the suffering of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests, for good Priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept my life Sacrifice and my offerings and give me Your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death." Amen. https://www.avemariamaternostra.com/life-offering-promises.html It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's promises in the link: those who make it seriously will face no Purgatory (promise 5) since they would have completed it here, will have all their loved ones released from Purgatory the day they offer their life with intent to persevere (promise 4), and can save the souls of all their family members in due time by their life offering (promise 3). It will benefit all souls who have ever lived until time's end (promise 2) A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Inflamed in Large Letters of Love, you will have your name written in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary forever (promise 1).
 
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Online Xavier

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2018, 11:22:45 AM »
For an example of the compelling way in which Dr. Brown proceeds to make his case and the means by which Christian students of Creation Science can benefit from it, consider the various lines of evidence Dr. Brown lays out that mammoths (many of whom have been found fossilized with food in their mouth! - indicating a quick unexpected death) died in the flood. He emphasizes that all competing theories need to successfully explain these data points as well and the one that does so most comprehensively and makes the best predictions is the truest and surest scientific explanation. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FrozenMammoths5.html

Quote
Evidence Requiring an Explanation

Summarized below are the hard-to-explain details which any satisfactory theory for the frozen mammoths should explain.
Abundant Food.  A typical wild elephant requires about 330 pounds of food per day. Therefore, vast quantities of food were needed to support the estimated 5,000,000 mammoths that lived in just a small portion of northern Siberia. Adams’ mammoth, discovered in 1799, “was so fat ... that its belly hung below its knees.”109 How was abundant food available inside the Arctic Circle, especially during winter months when the Sun rarely shines?
Warm Climate.  Abundant food requires a temperate climate, much warmer than northern Siberia today—or during the Ice Age. Little of the food found in Berezovka’s mouth and stomach grows near the Arctic Circle today. Furthermore, the flower fragments in its stomach show that it died during warm weather. Despite the popular misconception, the mammoth was a temperate—not an Arctic—animal.
Away From Rivers.  Although most frozen remains are found along river banks where excavations naturally occur, some frozen remains are found far from rivers.
Yedomas and Loess.  Frozen mammoths are frequently found in yedomas and loess. What accounts for this and the strange properties of yedomas and loess? What is the source of so much loess?
Elevated Burials.  Mammoth and rhinoceros bodies are often found on the highest levels of generally flat, low plateaus.110 Examples include dense concentrations of mammoth and rhinoceros remains in yedomas and the interior of Arctic islands. Dima was discovered in a mountainous region.
Multi-Continental.  Soft parts of large animals have been preserved over a 3,000-mile-wide zone involving three continents (Asia, Europe, and North America). It is unlikely that so many unrelated local events would produce such similar results over such a broad geographical area.
Rock Ice.  Strange, granular, Type 3 ice containing clay, sand, and a large volume of air pockets is sometimes found near frozen mammoths. [See Table 13 on page 287.]
Frozen Muck.  Mammoth carcasses are almost exclusively encased in frozen muck.111 Also buried in muck are huge deposits of trees and other animal and vegetable matter. The origin of muck is a mystery.
Sudden Freezing. Some frozen mammoths and rhinoceroses had food preserved in their mouths, stomachs, or intestines.112
Suffocation.  At least three mammoths and two rhinoceroses suffocated. No other cause of death has been established for the remaining frozen giants.
Dirty Lungs.  Dima’s respiratory and digestive tract contained silt, clay, and small particles of gravel. Just before he died, Dima breathed air and/or ate food containing such matter.
Peppered Tusks. Why, over wide geographical areas, did millimeter-size particles (rich in iron and nickel) become embedded in one side of some mammoth tusks?
-150°F.  Temperatures surrounding some mammoths must have plunged below -150°F.
Large Animals.  Most frozen remains are from the larger, stronger animals, such as mammoths and rhinoceroses.
Summer-Fall Death.  Vegetation in the stomachs and intestines of preserved mammoths implies that they died in late summer or early fall,114 perhaps in August115 or even late July.116
Animal Mixes.  Bones of many types of animals, friends and foes, are frequently found near the mammoths.
Upright.  Several frozen mammoths, and even mammoth skeletons,117 were found upright. Despite this posture, the Berezovka mammoth had a broken pelvis and shoulder blade, and a crushed leg. Surprisingly, he was not lying on his side in a position of agony.
Vertical Compression. Berezovka’s crushed leg bone and horizontally flattened penis show severe vertical compression before or soon after death. Dima was also compressed and flattened.
Eighteen pieces of the problem are now before us. Fitting this centuries-old jigsaw puzzle together will be our final task. As you will see, clever and imaginative proposals have been made, but most address only a few pieces of the puzzle.

What Happened?

...Robust theories also provide details that result in surprising and testable predictions. Keep this in mind as we examine all ten explanations. With each, ask yourself, “What predictions can this theory make?” If predictions are missing, the theory is probably weak.118 If theories could not be published unless they included many details and specific predictions, we would be mercifully spared many distractions and false ideas.

Hydroplate Theory.  [For a more detailed description of the hydroplate theory, read pages 115–152.] On that terrible day, the rupture of the earth’s crust passed between what is now Siberia and Alaska in minutes. Jetting water from the fountains of the great deep first fell as rain. During the next few hours, some of the accelerating and expanding subterranean water that went above the atmosphere (where the effective temperature is several hundred degrees below zero Fahrenheit) froze and fell as hail.119 Some animals were suddenly buried, suffocated, frozen, and compressed by tons of cold, muddy ice crystals from the gigantic “hail storm.” Dirt in this ice prevented it from floating as the flood waters submerged these regions after days and weeks. Blankets of this muddy ice, hundreds of feet thick, insulated and preserved many animals during the flood phase. As the topmost layers of ice melted, the dirt in that ice remained and settled—blanketing and further insulating the deeper ice and buried animals.
Months later, after mountains were suddenly pushed up, the earth’s balance shifted, the earth slowly “rolled” 34°–57°, so Siberia and Alaska moved from temperate latitudes (similar to north-central United States today) to their present positions. [For details, see Endnote 83 on page 149.] As the flood waters drained off the continents, whatever icy graves existed in warmer climates melted, and buried animals decayed. However, many animals, buried in what are now permafrost regions, were preserved ...
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING: "My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby Offer my whole Life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the suffering of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests, for good Priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept my life Sacrifice and my offerings and give me Your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death." Amen. https://www.avemariamaternostra.com/life-offering-promises.html It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's promises in the link: those who make it seriously will face no Purgatory (promise 5) since they would have completed it here, will have all their loved ones released from Purgatory the day they offer their life with intent to persevere (promise 4), and can save the souls of all their family members in due time by their life offering (promise 3). It will benefit all souls who have ever lived until time's end (promise 2) A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Inflamed in Large Letters of Love, you will have your name written in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary forever (promise 1).
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2018, 12:41:38 PM »
Dr. Walt Brown has many excellent articles and videos, as well as an online book, explaining in detail the reasons multiple lines of evidence point to the fact that there were once multiple plates of water - hydroplates - beneath the earth's crust. We can discuss the pros and cons of this theory and its explanatory scope and power in this thread. One obvious pro is its full conformity with the Sacred Scriptures.

Without further ado, let Dr. Brown explain in his own words,

Each appears to be a consequence of a sudden, unrepeatable event: a global flood whose waters erupted from interconnected, worldwide subterranean chambers with a directed energy release—focused upward—that exceeded the explosion of trillions of hydrogen bombs.1 The hydroplate theory, explained later in this chapter, will resolve all these mysteries. 
But first, what is a hydroplate? Before the global flood, an ocean of water was under earth’s crust. Pressure increases in this subterranean water ruptured that crust, breaking it into plates. The escaping water flooded the earth. Because hydro means water, those crustal plates will be called hydroplates. Where and why they broke, how they moved, and hundreds of other details and evidence—all consistent with the laws of physics—explain so many of earth’s major features and constitute the hydroplate theory.

Before we even get into the science, let's think about this scenario.  Scripture has it that the Flood was a specific punishment for specific evils of mankind, and not just a generic punishment for original sin (such as illness).  Yet in this theory the Flood is predictable and inevitable from the initial configuration of the earth and the laws of physics.  Is the explanation going to be that God created the earth like this because He foreknew of original sin and the later wickedness of mankind? 

 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2018, 02:52:03 PM »
I like this theory because it matches with a verse of Genesis that is often overlooked:

Genesis 7:
[11] In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were opened:

We picture the 40 days of rain, but also playing perhaps a bigger role are "the fountains of the great deep."
 
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Offline Greg

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2018, 03:09:45 PM »
Dr. Walt Brown has many excellent articles and videos, as well as an online book, explaining in detail the reasons multiple lines of evidence point to the fact that there were once multiple plates of water - hydroplates - beneath the earth's crust. We can discuss the pros and cons of this theory and its explanatory scope and power in this thread. One obvious pro is its full conformity with the Sacred Scriptures.

Without further ado, let Dr. Brown explain in his own words,

Each appears to be a consequence of a sudden, unrepeatable event: a global flood whose waters erupted from interconnected, worldwide subterranean chambers with a directed energy release—focused upward—that exceeded the explosion of trillions of hydrogen bombs.1 The hydroplate theory, explained later in this chapter, will resolve all these mysteries. 
But first, what is a hydroplate? Before the global flood, an ocean of water was under earth’s crust. Pressure increases in this subterranean water ruptured that crust, breaking it into plates. The escaping water flooded the earth. Because hydro means water, those crustal plates will be called hydroplates. Where and why they broke, how they moved, and hundreds of other details and evidence—all consistent with the laws of physics—explain so many of earth’s major features and constitute the hydroplate theory.

Before we even get into the science, let's think about this scenario.  Scripture has it that the Flood was a specific punishment for specific evils of mankind, and not just a generic punishment for original sin (such as illness).  Yet in this theory the Flood is predictable and inevitable from the initial configuration of the earth and the laws of physics.  Is the explanation going to be that God created the earth like this because He foreknew of original sin and the later wickedness of mankind?

Also, don't we have scriptural dates on the flood of Noah?

How did his descendents get to the various contents and middle of the ocean Islands.

There was a very interesting tribe in Tierra del Fuego called the Ona who when first contacted were living without shoes, had no homes, walls, roofs, sewn clothes of any sort.  They were running around barefoot in the Southern Part of Argentina and Chile, (which is blooming cold and windy and wet, just covered in animal skins and lying on the leeward side of a hill or fallen tree to escape the wind.  Completely primitive.

It's extremely odd that any of Noah's descendents could have navigated an ocean and their offspring fallen SO far behind technologically that they went back to being feral.

How on earth could that happen on the same continent as the Aztec, Inca and Maya civilisations?  At some point in the last 3000 years they surely must have had a common ancestor.
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Offline Greg

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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2018, 08:06:01 PM »
Naturally, of all the available flood geologies, Xavier makes a beeline for the worst one, or one of the worst ones, which reads like a bad sci-fi
novel.  Even many of his fellow creationists aren't too impressed. 

https://creation.com/hydroplate-theory

Quote
In my general comments, I point out his questionable initial conditions, lack of in-depth analysis, the arbitrary fitting of data to his model, questionable references and analogies, the dubious significance of his predictions, and problematic comparison tables.

Now, in this model, comets and asteroids are also the result of the waters being unleashed from the great deep.  Thus, if you "play the tape" of cometary and asteroid motion backwards, they should all converge at the earth at the same time several thousands of years ago.  Guess what, they don't.  (Cue accusations that Newton's Law of Gravity is another "evolutionist" assumption or that NASA is in on the conspiracy.)

It still doesn't explain the distribution of fossils in the geological column.  In fact, the faster things fossilize, the worse things get for creationism.

And it certainly doesn't explain the mother-daughter isotope ratios.  According to Dr. Brown, the mother isotopes were formed in the rock due to the intense pressure (probably nowhere even close to the huge pressures necessary but anyway).  So how come the ratio changes the further up you go in the column?  If you appeal to a pressure gradient, that would result in more mother isotope initially further down, but the ratio would stay the same, even if one appeals to accelerated nuclear decay and can manage to make that work without vaporizing the earth.  And by the (I guess) sheerest of coincidences, the pre-Flood rock has even less mother-daughter ratio then that laid down by the Flood.
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2018, 09:00:18 PM »

Also, don't we have scriptural dates on the flood of Noah?

How did his descendents get to the various contents and middle of the ocean Islands.

There was a very interesting tribe in Tierra del Fuego called the Ona who when first contacted were living without shoes, had no homes, walls, roofs, sewn clothes of any sort.  They were running around barefoot in the Southern Part of Argentina and Chile, (which is blooming cold and windy and wet, just covered in animal skins and lying on the leeward side of a hill or fallen tree to escape the wind.  Completely primitive.

It's extremely odd that any of Noah's descendents could have navigated an ocean and their offspring fallen SO far behind technologically that they went back to being feral.

Interesting story about the people of Tierra del Fuego, but certainly no argument against creation or for evolution in the slightest.

These people seem slightly more technologically advanced than the Aborigines of Australia. I've never seen the Aborigines used as an argument for evolution, although I'm sure someone can think up one now that it's suggested.

Too bad St. John Bosco isn't still around, or we could ask him. In the book "40 Dreams of Don Bosco," he had visions of the people of Tierra del Fuego.


How on earth could that happen on the same continent as the Aztec, Inca and Maya civilisations?  At some point in the last 3000 years they surely must have had a common ancestor.

No, not at all. Thor Heyerdahl showed that it was likely there were several migrations coming and going from South America. These people could be a completely different bunch from the Incans or the Mayans.

Personally, I'm not a big believer in the "coming over the Bering Strait" theory. It doesn't seem to fit the facts at all. The oldest archeological remains are in the furthest South.

If anything, it seems more likely to me that people migrated East from the Americas over to Asia, rather than vice-versa. Otherwise we would have had horses in America.
 
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Offline Greg

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2018, 02:15:12 AM »
So their ancestors were technically advanced enough to cross an ocean, a pretty darned difficult thing to do, but they did not retain the skills and intellignece to built walls and a roof and sew clothes?

Hard to imagine how this would be possible.  You would think the weather conditions alone would make this a very high priority skill to pass from father to son.  Look at the sophisticated clothes of reindeer herders in Lapland.  Those techniques are ancient and spread all over the polar region.

Not convinced Thor Heyerdahl is anything more than a publicity stunt.   Modern understanding of engineering techniques and material tolerances, seasonal weather patterns, shipping lanes, someone on shore knowing when you left and when you are due to arrive make his experiment a little suspect to me.  Watched lots of documentaries and never found it convincing.  He had an agenda.  Easy to bias to get the result he wanted.
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Online Xavier

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 05:29:29 AM »
[b
I like this theory because it matches with a verse of Genesis that is often overlooked:

Genesis 7:
[11] In the six hundredth year of the life of Noe, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the flood gates of heaven were opened:

We picture the 40 days of rain, but also playing perhaps a bigger role are "the fountains of the great deep."

Beautiful. I was also thinking of Gen 2:6 "But a spring rose out the earth, watering all the surface of the earth", as being a source watering the garden of God in the terrestrial paradise, pre-fall, as a precedent for that. Moreover, the non-repeatability of the flood that God promised after the event also fits nicely. The Lord God had provided all these things in perfect foreknowledge, with the possibility perhaps of a different purpose if Adam had proved faithful and the fall had never happened. But what I miss the most in some of the models of my old earth creationist friends is the awareness that this beautiful Green and Blue Earth of God had once been like a Paradise and would have continued as such, before our first parents sinned. This is very clear in the writings of Saints and Doctors of the Church. St. Symeon, the Byzantine Catholic theologian, is one example. From St. Kolbe centre for the study of creation, http://kolbecenter.org/adam-and-eve-writings-mystical-saints-doctors-church/

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"May the testimony of these holy witnesses shock us out of our timid submission to the wild conjectures of evolutionary speculation disguised as “science” and call us back to a proper reverence and submission to God’s revelation of what He did when there were no rational witnesses but the angelic choirs! ... Moses: Prophet of the Past - For the Fathers of the Church, Moses was the prophet of the past who described what God showed him regarding the creation of the world. In the words of St. John Chrysostom:

All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or of what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth.[1] ... The greatest Fathers and Doctors of the Church concurred with St. John Chrysostom. St. Ambrose wrote that: Moses spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence. And so Moses opened his mouth and uttered what the Lord spoke within him, according to the promise He made to him when He directed him to go to King Pharaoh: “Go therefore and I will open thy mouth and instruct thee what thou shouldest speak” (Ex. 4:12). For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, “not in the persuasive words of wisdom,” not in philosophical fallacies, “but in demonstration of the Spirit and power” (1 Cor. 2:4), he has ventured to say as if he were a witness of the Divine work: “In the beginning God created heaven and earth.” [2] St. Basil taught that Moses was: The man who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, [who] reports to us those things which he heard from God.[3] ...One such mystical doctor was St. Symeon the New Theologian (949-1022) who saw in divine vision the original state of Adam and the first created world. He wrote:

God did not, as some people think, just give Paradise to our ancestors at the beginning, nor did He make only Paradise incorruptible. No! Instead, He did much more. Before Paradise He made the whole earth, the one we inhabit, and everything in it. Nor that alone, but He also in five days brought the heavens and all they contain into being. On the sixth day He made Adam and established him as lord and king of all visible creation. Neither Eve nor Paradise were yet created, but the whole world had been brought into being by God as one thing, as a kind of Paradise, at once incorruptible yet material and perceptible.[7]

According to St. Symeon, the original harmony and incorruptibility of the first created world was destroyed by the Original Sin of Adam which brought death and corruption into the whole universe:

It was . . . altogether fitting that Adam, who had been brought down to corruption and death by his own transgression, should inhabit an earth become in like manner transitory and mortal[8] . . . [But God] wills that creation serve [fallen] man for whom it was made, and like him become corruptible, so that when again man is renewed and becomes spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal, then creation, too, now subjected to the rebel by God’s command and made his slave, will be freed from its slavery and, together with man, be made new, and become incorruptible and wholly spiritual.[9] Several other saints of the Byzantine tradition added their eyewitness testimony to the testimony of St. Symeon.

Quare and Greg, what do you think of Robert Ballard's discovery? https://www.trussel.com/prehist/news210.htm

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Evidence of disastrous flood 7,000 years ago may coincide with Bible story of Noah
 WASHINGTON (AP) Artifacts and an ancient building found at the bottom of the Black Sea provide new evidence that humans faced a great flood, perhaps that of the biblical Noah, thousands of years ago, the discoverers say.

Remnants of human habitation were found in over 100 meters of water about 19.2 km off the coast of Turkey, undersea explorer Robert Ballard said Tuesday.

"There's no doubt about it, it's an exciting discovery," Ballard said in a telephone interview from his research ship. "We realize the broad significance the discovery has and we're going to do our best to learn more."

Fredrik Hiebert of the University of Pennsylvania, chief archaeologist for the Black Sea project, said from the ship, "This find represents the first concrete evidence for the occupation of the Black Sea coast prior to its flooding."

Many ancient Middle Eastern cultures have legends of a great flood, including the Bible story of Noah.

Columbia University researchers William Ryan and Walter Pittman speculated in their 1997 book "Noah's Flood" that when the European glaciers melted about 7,000 years ago, the Mediterranean Sea overflowed into what was then a smaller freshwater lake to create the Black Sea.

Last year Ballard found indications of an ancient coastline kilometers out from the current Black Sea coast. His new discovery provides evidence that people once lived in that now inundated region.

Ballard, a National Geographic Society explorer in residence, said he had studied shells found along the ancient coastline and found two types. One group is an extinct type of freshwater shell, while the second is from saltwater shellfish.

The saltwater shells date back 6,500 years, while the freshwater shells all date to 7,000 years ago and older.

"So," he said Tuesday, "we know that there was a sudden and dramatic change from a freshwater lake to a saltwater sea 7,000 years ago.

"And we know that as a result of that flood a vast amount of land went under water.

"And we now know that that land was inhabited. What we don't know is who these people are, we don't know how broad their settlements were ... but we're expanding our studies to try to determine that."

Ballard said his team, using remote-controlled underwater vessels with cameras, located a former river valley beneath the sea and in that valley was a collapsed structure, including some preserved wooden beams that had been worked by hand.

The structure was "clearly built by humans," and was characteristic of stone-age structures built 7,000 years ago in the interior of Turkey, Ballard said.

Sacred Scripture speaks of the Ark as alighting finally on the mountains of Armenia in the broad location of mount Ararat in Turkey.

Quare, Creation Scientists have proposed different models after many decades of study. If you read the site you linked to, Michael Oard, M.Sc, admits Dr. Brown's model explains some areas well. He feels other models explain different data points better. I'm open to both.

"Brown’s book has much good information and brings up many conundrums of earth science."

One hypothesis I've seen is that the global flood sorted species based on their density and mobility. The ones that were able to make better attempts to escape were buried last while the others were overwhelmed more quickly. These are tentative hypotheses.

There is some evidence, and there are some questions to be cleared up. I don't claim to have the answers, Quare. I'll try to email some Creation Scientists with them and get back to you. Dr. Brown also documents that these animals who perished in the flood died relatively recently. "For an explanation of radiocarbon dating and its assumptions, see pages 525–529. Those pages explain why 40,000 radiocarbon years (RCY) is a typical radiocarbon age for most frozen remains, and why 40,000 radiocarbon years correspond to about 5,000 actual years. A slight amount of contamination of the remains, for example, by groundwater, would lower their radiocarbon age considerably, especially something living as the flood began. This probably explains why different parts of the first Vollosovitch mammoth had widely varying radiocarbon ages—29,500 and 44,000 RCY.142 One part of Dima was 44,000 RCY, another was 26,000 RCY, and “wood found immediately around the carcass” was 9,000–10,000 RCY.143 Food in the Shandrin mammoth gave radiocarbon ages that differed by 10,000 years.144 The lower leg of the Fairbanks Creek mammoth had a radiocarbon age of 15,380 RCY, while its skin and flesh were 21,300 RCY.145 The two Colorado Creek mammoths had radiocarbon ages of 22,850 ± 670 and 16,150 ± 230 years.146 Because a bone fragment at one burial site fits precisely with a bone at the other site 30 feet away,147 and the soil had undergone considerable compression and movement, both mammoths probably died simultaneously." http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FrozenMammoths8.html While some perhaps have slight contamination from groundwater, it seems a stretch to say all of it is that.

Is that what you will say, Quare? I'll have to read up to get back to you on the other (mother-daughter isotope) issue. I will do that here in this thread, but it'll take some time. The pressure gradient theory shows some promise. These are attempts to reconstruct the past as closely as possible, so some things will be uncertain under any theory. The eyewitness and historical testimony to us takes precedence.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2018, 05:59:28 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING: "My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby Offer my whole Life to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the suffering of my entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and Priests, for good Priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept my life Sacrifice and my offerings and give me Your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death." Amen. https://www.avemariamaternostra.com/life-offering-promises.html It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's promises in the link: those who make it seriously will face no Purgatory (promise 5) since they would have completed it here, will have all their loved ones released from Purgatory the day they offer their life with intent to persevere (promise 4), and can save the souls of all their family members in due time by their life offering (promise 3). It will benefit all souls who have ever lived until time's end (promise 2) A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Inflamed in Large Letters of Love, you will have your name written in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary forever (promise 1).
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 08:18:56 AM »
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"May the testimony of these holy witnesses shock us out of our timid submission to the wild conjectures of evolutionary speculation disguised as “science” and call us back to a proper reverence and submission to God’s revelation of what He did when there were no rational witnesses but the angelic choirs! ... Moses: Prophet of the Past - For the Fathers of the Church, Moses was the prophet of the past who described what God showed him regarding the creation of the world. In the words of St. John Chrysostom:

I simply don't believe them on this, sorry.  Your demand that I do means that you think an argument from authority should trump an argument from evidence and data.  But do you also believe them when some of them denied the antipodes (men living on the other side of the earth) or believed in spontaneous generation or geocentrism?

If it's OK to think that Scriptures only relate what sensibly appeared and not the reality of things (which Leo XIII had to admit to finesse the geocentrism issue) then it's OK to think that Scripture only related what sensibly appeared during the Flood.

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Quare and Greg, what do you think of Robert Ballard's discovery? https://www.trussel.com/prehist/news210.htm

It may well be the flood related in the Bible.

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Quare, Creation Scientists have proposed different models after many decades of study. If you read the site you linked to, Michael Oard, M.Sc, admits Dr. Brown's model explains some areas well. He feels other models explain different data points better. I'm open to both.

Uh, no, that isn't exactly what Oard thinks.

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"Brown’s book has much good information and brings up many conundrums of earth science."

C'mon.  You cherry picked that quote to give a misleading impression.  The "good information" is in general, and not related to his particular model.  Oard doesn't think much of Brown's model at all.  Immediately in the next paragraph he says,

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Although he has seven chapters amplifying aspects of his Flood model, Brown does not analyze many phenomena in depth. Instead he gives a broad brush analysis without connecting details of his mechanism with the phenomena to be explained.

That, for a scientist, is a pretty severe indictment.

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One hypothesis I've seen is that the global flood sorted species based on their density and mobility. The ones that were able to make better attempts to escape were buried last while the others were overwhelmed more quickly. These are tentative hypotheses.

And falsified.  So then birds should be at the very top.  They aren't.  Cheetahs should be higher up than humans.  They aren't.  There's no real convincing explanation for why the geologic column basically appears in the same order, everywhere in the world, except for the "evolutionist" explanation that different animals on the earth at different periods during earth's history.

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There is some evidence, and there are some questions to be cleared up. I don't claim to have the answers, Quare. I'll try to email some Creation Scientists with them and get back to you. Dr. Brown also documents that these animals who perished in the flood died relatively recently. "For an explanation of radiocarbon dating and its assumptions, see pages 525–529. Those pages explain why 40,000 radiocarbon years (RCY) is a typical radiocarbon age for most frozen remains, and why 40,000 radiocarbon years correspond to about 5,000 actual years. ...While some perhaps have slight contamination from groundwater, it seems a stretch to say all of it is that.

Yes, it does seem a like a stretch to say that.  And what about the fossils that are C-14 dead?

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Is that what you will say, Quare? I'll have to read up to get back to you on the other (mother-daughter isotope) issue. I will do that here in this thread, but it'll take some time. The pressure gradient theory shows some promise.

No, it doesn't.  It predicts more production of mother elements, but not different half-lifes.  And, if it's true, we should see progressively more isotope (mother-daughter combined) the further down we go.


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These are attempts to reconstruct the past as closely as possible, so some things will be uncertain under any theory. The eyewitness and historical testimony to us takes precedence.

Just so we're clear.  You are saying there is eyewitness and historical testimony to a global flood?
 

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2018, 08:34:52 AM »

So their ancestors were technically advanced enough to cross an ocean, a pretty darned difficult thing to do, but they did not retain the skills and intellignece to built walls and a roof and sew clothes?

Let's set aside Tierra del Fuego for a minute, and just look at the Aborigines. They're there in Australia. They are a fact. How did they get there? Today they have no clothes or dwellings, and yet somehow in the distant past they got to Australia.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2018, 09:30:53 AM »
You island hop down Indonesia to East Timor or PNG and then hop over the Cook Strait.

You're never more than about 100km (70 miles) from land and the sea is calm as a millpond most of the year.

South Atlantic is rough as anything and has no stop over points for fresh water and food.

The Pacific on the other side has a huge windless area if you are coming from the equator and then you'd have to cross over the Andes.

Abos are probably Africans who worked their way around the Arabian sea and India ocean over years ended up in PNG and eventually island hopped to Australia.  They have a similar look to African's and VERY dark skin when they have been in the sun.  Almost jet black.
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2018, 11:00:02 AM »
I would like to point out that when the Aborigines arrived in Australia, Indonesia was not an archipelago of islands, but was rather two larger landmasses due to the lower sea levels. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Indonesia#/media/File:Map_of_Sunda_and_Sahul.png

So the Aborigines didn't need to sail across the entire Indian Ocean from Africa. Just the smaller separation in the above map. Similarly, the ancestors of the Native Americans crossed into North America across the Bering Land Bridge linking Siberia and Alaska during the last major ice age.
 

Offline Greg

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Re: Hydroplate theory: The Science of the Flood and of Special Creation.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2018, 09:31:48 PM »
Regardless it is a damned site easier than sailing or rowing across the south atlantic.
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