Author Topic: Xavier's M.O.  (Read 2893 times)

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Xavier's M.O.
« on: September 02, 2018, 05:11:56 PM »
1.  Put forth something which supposedly "absolutely disproves" evolution and a young earth.

2.  "Evolutionists" show up and show how that something really is no difficulty at all.

3.  Call the "evolutionist" explanation "evolutionist just-so storytelling" and "absurd", without bothering to address the actual arguments.

4.  Completely ignore "evolutionist" questions about how everything fits into creationist worldview, but merely loudly proclaim that the scientific evidence "overwhelmingly" supports YEC.

5.  Make lots of arguments to consequences about how awful it would be if YEC were wrong.  For instance, it would mean that some of his favorite mystics/visionaries were wrong, and that simply couldn't be.

6.  Portray himself as the victim of evolutionist "bullying".

7.  When no one takes him seriously as an intellectually honest, or at least sufficiently knowledgeable, debater, claim their minds have been warped by "sympathy" to evolution.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 05:31:33 PM »
I do not see anything like that at all. If anything, it is the ape man myth people who act the way you outline.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
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"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 05:33:08 PM »
Xavier has long shown himself to be unable or unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion concerning evolution and his own brand of biblical literalism. He'd rather shout his views from the roof tops and condemn anyone who disagrees with him as a modernist heretic.

Heinrich, you only think that because you too are scientifically illiterate.
 
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Offline Heinrich

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 05:36:23 PM »
Xavier has long shown himself to be unable or unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion concerning evolution and his own brand of biblical literalism. He'd rather shout his views from the roof tops and condemn anyone who disagrees with him as a modernist heretic.

Heinrich, you only think that because you too are scientifically illiterate.

Point proven.  :cheeseheadbeer:
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2018, 05:47:26 PM »
Xavier has long shown himself to be unable or unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion concerning evolution and his own brand of biblical literalism. He'd rather shout his views from the roof tops and condemn anyone who disagrees with him as a modernist heretic.

Heinrich, you only think that because you too are scientifically illiterate.

Point proven.  :cheeseheadbeer:

Calling you scientifically illiterate doesn't qualify for Quare's point 6. It's a statement of fact, not an attack on anyone's character. Unless you really are that sensitive  ::)
 

Offline Heinrich

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 05:52:01 PM »
Xavier has long shown himself to be unable or unwilling to have an intellectually honest discussion concerning evolution and his own brand of biblical literalism. He'd rather shout his views from the roof tops and condemn anyone who disagrees with him as a modernist heretic.

Heinrich, you only think that because you too are scientifically illiterate.

Point proven.  :cheeseheadbeer:

Calling you scientifically illiterate doesn't qualify for Quare's point 6. It's a statement of fact, not an attack on anyone's character. Unless you really are that sensitive  ::)

At least I am not a retard like some people.
Schaff Recht mir Gott und führe meine Sache gegen ein unheiliges Volk . . .   .                          
Lex Orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
"Die Welt sucht nach Ehre, Ansehen, Reichtum, Vergnügen; die Heiligen aber suchen Demütigung, Verachtung, Armut, Abtötung und Buße." --Ausschnitt von der Geschichte des Lebens St. Bennos.
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2018, 06:07:59 PM »
I find YEC basically more reasonable than the materialist big bang stuff because there is at least an attempt to satisfy the principle of causation, even if the processes seem to rely too heavily on divine intervention. So long as the latter is viewed as a respectable opinion among scientists and the supposedly educated I'm not going to be outraged by YEC theories.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 06:09:35 PM by Graham »
 
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Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2018, 06:11:11 PM »
I find YEC basically more reasonable than the materialist big bang stuff because there is at least an attempt to satisfy the principle of causation, even if it seems difficult to believe. So long as the latter is viewed as a respectable opinion among scientists and the supposedly educated I'm not going to be outraged by YEC theories.

You only find it more reasonable because it corresponds to your own bias of biblical literalism. The fact is that YEC makes God a deceiver who purposely planted evidence for an old Earth, and for what? Such a "God" is not worthy of worship. 
 
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Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2018, 06:12:28 PM »
Whatever one thinks about Xavier’s m.o., he is quite correct in his recognition that evolution is the hill to die on.  If evolution is true, then you have to face it: game over.  More than many other Catholics, Xavier sees this fact plainly for what it’s worth.  Getting him to answer questions can sometimes be like pulling teeth, but I like him.
 

Offline Graham

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2018, 06:28:09 PM »
I find YEC basically more reasonable than the materialist big bang stuff because there is at least an attempt to satisfy the principle of causation, even if it seems difficult to believe. So long as the latter is viewed as a respectable opinion among scientists and the supposedly educated I'm not going to be outraged by YEC theories.

You only find it more reasonable because it corresponds to your own bias of biblical literalism. The fact is that YEC makes God a deceiver who purposely planted evidence for an old Earth, and for what? Such a "God" is not worthy of worship.

Wrong. I stated why I find it more reasonable - because, unlike the socially acceptable materialist big bang theory, it makes an attempt (however difficult to believe) to satisfy the absolutely fundamental principle of causation. The counterargument you adduce is far more logically remote
 

Offline GloriaPatri

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2018, 06:44:47 PM »
I find YEC basically more reasonable than the materialist big bang stuff because there is at least an attempt to satisfy the principle of causation, even if it seems difficult to believe. So long as the latter is viewed as a respectable opinion among scientists and the supposedly educated I'm not going to be outraged by YEC theories.

You only find it more reasonable because it corresponds to your own bias of biblical literalism. The fact is that YEC makes God a deceiver who purposely planted evidence for an old Earth, and for what? Such a "God" is not worthy of worship.

Wrong. I stated why I find it more reasonable - because, unlike the socially acceptable materialist big bang theory, it makes an attempt (however difficult to believe) to satisfy the absolutely fundamental principle of causation. The counterargument you adduce is far more logically remote

Big Bang cosmology is literally built upon causation. In what way do you think it's not?
 

Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2018, 07:23:45 PM »
Whatever one thinks about Xavier’s m.o., he is quite correct in his recognition that evolution is the hill to die on.  If evolution is true, then you have to face it: game over.  More than many other Catholics, Xavier sees this fact plainly for what it’s worth.  Getting him to answer questions can sometimes be like pulling teeth, but I like him.

All I can say is, if the arguments aren't going to be any better than Xavier's, prepare to die...

Besides, the game is already over as regards indefectibility.

I would say, though, that this seems to assume the Thomist version of the Incarnation rather than the Scotist.  The argument is "well if evolution is true, then original sin is a myth, which means the Incarnation wouldn't have happened".  Scotists would deny the consequent.
 

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2018, 08:51:32 PM »
All I can say is, if the arguments aren't going to be any better than Xavier's, prepare to die...

Besides, the game is already over as regards indefectibility.

I would say, though, that this seems to assume the Thomist version of the Incarnation rather than the Scotist.  The argument is "well if evolution is true, then original sin is a myth, which means the Incarnation wouldn't have happened".  Scotists would deny the consequent.

Duns Scotus did not deny original sin, though.  His point was theoretical: that Christ would’ve been made incarnate even if the Fall hadn’t occurred.  But if Christianity is true, then original sin had to have happened.  Otherwise the gospels are meaningless.  If the Word was made flesh, if Jesus Christ was God incarnate, then his purpose was to redeem us from original sin.  He did not come to frolic with us in an earthly paradise.  This is observably a messed-up world.  It’s that way for one of two reasons.  It’s either the result of the Fall, or God is remote and no one’s in charge.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2018, 09:24:22 PM »

Besides, the game is already over as regards indefectibility.


Far from it.  It's simply that you have your own definition of indefectibility, which is faulty -- i.e., not the Catholic orthodox understanding of it.  You begin with a fallacy.

Most modernists and many sedevacantists also have false understandings of the term.  Although I have always known this fact, it was reinforced for me recently in one of Fr. Ripperger's sermons -- three separate talks on the three theological virtues, and thus I am finding those sermons (which I am listening to again) helpful and necessary to me.  Poor knowledge of the foundations of Catholicism impairs the theological virtue of faith.  Insufficient hope leads to discouragement and despair when men in power in the Church disappoint.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 03:39:31 AM by Miriam_M »
 
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Xavier's M.O.
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2018, 09:54:39 PM »
Duns Scotus did not deny original sin, though.  His point was theoretical: that Christ would’ve been made incarnate even if the Fall hadn’t occurred.  But if Christianity is true, then original sin had to have happened.  Otherwise the gospels are meaningless.  If the Word was made flesh, if Jesus Christ was God incarnate, then his purpose was to redeem us from original sin. 

That's a contradiction, if Scotus is right.  If Christ would've been made incarnate even without a Fall, then you can't say His purpose (absolutely and simply) was to redeem us; otherwise He would not have come, as the Thomists say.

Quote
This is observably a messed-up world.  It’s that way for one of two reasons.  It’s either the result of the Fall, or God is remote and no one’s in charge.

And that's a false dichotomy.  How is it that many of our human vices are also seen in animals?  Sure, you can say they aren't vices in the strict sense because those animals aren't rational.  Still, you see barbaric cruelty, brutish lusts and sexual practices, even animals devouring their own children.  Sure, I know Protestants will say that that, too, is the result of the Fall, but c'mon.