Author Topic: Update on my Journey.  (Read 696 times)

Offline Livenotonevil

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Update on my Journey.
« on: August 23, 2018, 09:27:53 PM »
So, I just wanted to give my friends and fellow contributors on this forum of where I am.

I think I'm at a point where I'm almost done with research on the whole Chalcedon and non-Chalcedonian issue, and my conclusion thus far is that Chalcedon was a legitimate Council that must be obeyed.

Here is my thought process.

1. We have a situation where the whole of the Church (the Pope and the other Bishops) excommunicated one Patriarch for canonical violation.
2. The non-Chalcedonians hold that the Church was held hostage at the Council by a Nestorianizing Bishop of Rome, who promoted a Nestorian version of the Dyophysite theology. Therefore, the decisions aren't legitimate, as they don't have the Authority of the Keys (that is, Faith).

The biggest problem that the non-Chalcedonians seem to have with the phrase "Two Natures in One Person, Jesus Christ" is that, they claim, it officially implies that there is no union of the Natures, but rather the Two Natures kind of float in the Person of Jesus without union, or a communion of properties. If not interpreted like this, it can be interpreted as worse, with the Tome suggesting that each Nature acts as two individual actors in the Person Jesus Christ.

Such an interpretation clearly goes against Saint Cyril of Alexandria himself, who held to the formula "One Incarnate Nature of the Word", with Christ being "Fully God and Fully man."

The authority is the Holy Spirit speaking through Saint Cyril and what he taught.

So, if Chalcedon or Saint Leo isn't in line with what Saint Cyril taught - anathema. As to reject Saint Cyril is to reject the 3rd Ecumenical Council, Ephesus.

However, Saint Leo couldn't have possibly been a Nestorian, despite his association with Theodoret, as I read this today.

In this Sermon on the Lord's Passion, Sermon 54, Pope Saint Leo talks about the Two Natures of Christ and what exactly he meant by the Tome.

He quotes his Tome:
"But because the design of that mystery which was ordained for our restoration before the eternal ages, was not to be carried out without human weakness and without Divine power , both form does that which is proper to it in common with the other, the Word, that is, performing that which is the Word's and the flesh that which is of the flesh. One of them gleams bright with miracles, the other succumbs to injuries. The one departs not from equality with the Father's glory, the other leaves not the nature of our race. But nevertheless even His very endurance of sufferings does not so far expose Him to a participation in our humility as to separate Him from the power of the Godhead."

However, IMMEDIATELY BEFORE he quotes the Tome, he explains what exactly he meant.

"In all things, therefore, dearly-beloved, which pertain to the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Catholic Faith maintains and demands that we acknowledge the two Natures to have met in our Redeemer, and while their properties remained, such a union of both Natures to have been effected that, from the time when, as the cause of mankind required, in the blessed Virgin's womb, the Word became flesh, we may not think of Him as God without that which is man, nor as man without that which is God. Each Nature does indeed express its real existence by actions that distinguish it, but neither separates itself from connection with the other. Nothing is wanting there on either side; in the majesty the humility is complete, in the humility the majesty is complete: and the unity does not introduce confusion, nor does the distinctiveness destroy the unity. The one is passible, the other inviolable; and yet the degradation belongs to the same Person, as does the glory. He is present at once in weakness and in power; at once capable of death and the vanquisher of it. Therefore, God took on Him whole Manhood, and so blended the two Natures together by means of His mercy and power, that each Nature was present in the other, and neither passed out of its own properties into the other."

These are holy words that fully explain what Saint Leo meant by his Tome, spoken by the Authority of the Holy Spirit. What these words are what Saint Cyril spoke! Peter has spoken through Leo! Anathema to those who don't believe!

So, unless something comes up that convinces me otherwise, I firmly believe in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

However, I want to make this explicitly clear. If the Holy Spirit wants me ANYWHERE else, whether in the Roman Catholic Church in Communion with the Pope, or He wants me to join with the Oriental Orthodox, I will be more than happy to comply. I think for now I am at a point where all I can do now, first and foremost, is to have a relationship with Christ. And if I'm a heretic, if I'm a blasphemer, I ask for God's forgiveness.

One thing though I ask, of course, are your prayers. Because certainly your prayers are powerful. Pray that I may be able to be at peace with God, and to correct me if I'm a heretic.

Thanks for reading, and I ask you for your prayers, for the healing of my soul. Thanks again.

Dominus Vobiscum.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 09:52:57 PM by Livenotonevil »
May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
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Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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Re: Update on my Journey.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2018, 12:56:46 AM »
I'm glad you are here  :pray1:
They shall not be confounded in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be filled
Psalms 36:19
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Update on my Journey.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2018, 10:22:02 AM »
Dear friend and brother in Christ Livenotonevil, it's good you now know Pope St. Leo the Great was right and Eutyches was wrong and justly condemned by the Holy Father and by Patriarch St. Flavian who appealed to Pope St. Leo. I hope as you pray and study more, you will see equally that Pope St. Nicholas the Great was in the right and Photius was in the wrong. I would counsel you: set aside at least 2 hours every day, first hour of the morning and last hour of the night if none else available, to pray. Pray at least one Rosary every day without fail. Otherwise, at least repeat parts of the Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory be (e.g. "Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name", "Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name") many times throughout the day, lifting up your heart and mind to God, imploring your loving Father, Who cares for you and wants you to be saved, for light and grace to know the truth and be enlightened in the Faith with unwavering conviction. A good book you could read is a book by whom even some non-Catholics have called one of the most learned men to have ever lived, St. Alphonsus Maria Ligouri. He is a holy Doctor of the Catholic Church, lived a blameless life and the work is entitled "the history of heresies and their refutation". You can turn to the page on the Eutychian Monophysite and Photian Monopatrite heresies and their refutation.

If you become a catechumen in the Greek Church, as you seem to want to, one of the first things you will be asked to do is profess the heresy that denied the Ecumenical Formula of Greek Patriarch of Constantinople St. Tarasius. He confessed, in Nicaea II, "the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father through the Son". This clause is called per Filium in Latin and it was always considered by the Catholic Church to be equivalent to Filioque and acceptable - both St. Thomas and the Council of Florence say per Filium (from the Father through the Son) and Filioque (from the Father and the Son) manifestly express the same truth. But Photius denied per Filium and invented the novelty that the Holy Spirit, in proceeding from the Father, is separated and does not proceed through the Son. This claim is false and Photius just like Eutyches was also justly condemned for it.

Philip Schaff, in history of the Christian Church, says "Photius and other later Eastern controversialists dropped or rejected the per Filium as being nearly equivalent to Filioque". You can begin your researches from this point, inquiring into why Photius did this and what error he held.

You can also read about the council of 869. Please read it from Fr. Adrian Fortescue or some traditional writer - because some modern writers, for ecumenical reasons, give the history incorrectly - and you will see why Pope St. Nicholas the Great did not allow Photius to intrude upon the See that then belonged to Patriarch St. Ignatius by right.

The fact that Pope St. Damasus professed Filioque around 377, and even used it as a proof against Macedonians(!), also shows how erroneous is the claim that Filioque is heresy. Filioque is taught by St. Augustine, St. Ambrose and unanimously all the Latin Fathers. St. Fulgentius says, " Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that the same Holy Spirit, the One Spirit of the Father and the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son". The Greek Fathers, because of a difference in language, express this by "from the Father through the Son."

But in its oficial formula for reception of Catholics, the Greek Church will not ask you to profess: "the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son". Instead, they will ask you to repudiate the Spirit as belonging to Christ by nature, and as implying the Holy Spirit is from the Father without the mediation of the Son. So please ask yourself very carefully before you make your decision, my friend, are you sure you want to profess that? Because really the crux of the dispute between Rome and Constantinople in the 9th century was on Filioque, just as in the 5th century, Eutyches of Constantinople taught a heresy when he denied Christ was consubstantial with His Mother and us in His humanity.

According to what our Fathers have taught us, if we deny the Holy Spirit belongs to the Son by nature, since the Father eternally gave His Son His Spirit, then we cannot become the sons of God by grace. By denying who Christ is, we cannot become what we are meant to be, through His Spirit.

Don't mean to offend and hope I didn't; it's just necesary to speak of some of these things frankly. Eutyches erred, Pope St. Leo saved the day. That's what the Greek Church also believed till very recently.

All these things and more are mentioned by St. Alphonsus much better than I ever could in the work I mentioned above. God bless, Live. We will be praying for you. It's commendable you"re praying and thinking seriously about these doctrine; I only hope you slow down a little, never cut yourself off from Catholic Sacraments (that's a trap - even Orthodox saints have said Catholics born in the Catholic Church can receive grace wher they were born), continue to pray, study and then make your decision. God bless.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 10:57:51 AM by Xavier »
To understand God's Plan for Humanity, and how He has provided the means by which we can minimize the Coming Great Tribulation, read:

Offer your Life to Jesus and Mary: TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Eminence Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, His Excellency Metropolitan Hilarion, as well as His Eminence Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Roman Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the 220+ Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all 6000+ Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for the 400,000+ Priests, the 700,000+ Nuns, 50,000+ Monks, 100,000+ seminarians, that they may all become the Saints the Divine Will wishes them to be; for all the 1.35 Billion Members of the Church, the Millions of Catholic Catechumens and Children to be born and baptized in this Decade; we pray for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, for All Lay Apostolates, and All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen."

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Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: Update on my Journey.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2018, 11:26:10 AM »
I really like Alphonsus Ligouri, as he really gives the Roman Catholic view of Confession as something that involves a change of one's soul and heart, rather than a mechanical process of "say 3 Hail Maries and then your done."

I'll look into this book, Xavier. Thank you. The Soloviev book you gave me wasn't that too convincing, because all he did was quote Saint Leo in phrases that can be interpreted in an Orthodox way, which didn't show evidence of Universal Jurisdiction / Supremacy or Infallibility.


It's inaccurate to say that Eutyches denied Christ was consubstantial with His mother - during the Robber Council of Ephesus II, Eutyches confessed that he believed Christ was consubstantial with His mother... however, on later interrogation after the Robber Council, it was found that Eutyches believed He was consubstantial with His mother, but he wasn't consubstantial with humanity. Kind of on odd contradiction - did Eutyches believe that the Virgin Mary was a Deity or a Hypostasis of the Trinity? Did he not know what he was talking about?

It is humiliating to this day to the Oriental Orthodox that they exonerated a heretic after he remained a heretic. If only they let Saint Flavian defend himself before they killed him, then maybe they would've been wiser in their judgments.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 11:32:26 AM by Livenotonevil »
May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.