Author Topic: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15  (Read 2169 times)

Offline Xavier

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #30 on: January 24, 2019, 11:10:12 PM »
Thanks, PatronofHeaven. Good post.

Yes, Josephus, Maimonides and others, interpret she will crush as referring to Eve. Catholic Faith, of course, assures us it refers to the New Eve, namely our Blessed Mother Mary. The text cannot refer to old Eve because she was not the One Who crushed the enemy but was deceived by him. The Protestant KJV translated as "it" because they were uncertain.

Just imagine if Protestants had the translation right, "She will crush your head ...". That may just help crush their Protestantism! And bring them back to the Church. Anyway, one reason God willed to crush the Serpent by His Mother's Heel is to humble his pride to the utmost.

"As St. Louis de Montfort9 wrote: “Satan, being proud, suffers infinitely more from being beaten and punished by a little and humble handmaid of God, and her humility humbles him more than the divine power.” https://missiomagazine.com/shall-crush-head-genesis-315/

Satan and his devils cause and exacerbate all the sins and evils in the world. God's promise is an assurance Our Lady will defeat them.

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Offline PatronOfHeaven

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2019, 12:41:29 AM »
I find it interesting though that even in Josephus' works there is a war over the interpretation of Genesis 3:15.

Thomas Lodge translated the first english version from the Latin and French in London in 1602 and wrote. 
Quote
"... declaring him an enemy both to man and woman; whom he commanded to bruise the head of the serpent,..."

Ebenezar Thompson, from the "Original Greek" in 1777
Quote
"...branded him as the avowed enemy of mankind; further predicting, that Eve should tread upon his head,..."

What if Thomas Lodge mis-punctuated his translation and the right rendering is
Quote
"... declaring him an enemy both to man(kind); and THE woman whom he commanded to bruise the head of the serpent,..."

Either way, both of these translations make reference to a feminine subject (woman/Eve), which the Whiston translation, the Thackeray translation and the Feldman translation all omit.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 12:48:52 AM by PatronOfHeaven »
 
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Offline aquinas138

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2019, 02:58:37 PM »
I find it interesting though that even in Josephus' works there is a war over the interpretation of Genesis 3:15.

Thomas Lodge translated the first english version from the Latin and French in London in 1602 and wrote. 
Quote
"... declaring him an enemy both to man and woman; whom he commanded to bruise the head of the serpent,..."

Ebenezar Thompson, from the "Original Greek" in 1777
Quote
"...branded him as the avowed enemy of mankind; further predicting, that Eve should tread upon his head,..."

What if Thomas Lodge mis-punctuated his translation and the right rendering is
Quote
"... declaring him an enemy both to man(kind); and THE woman whom he commanded to bruise the head of the serpent,..."

Either way, both of these translations make reference to a feminine subject (woman/Eve), which the Whiston translation, the Thackeray translation and the Feldman translation all omit.

The Thompson is more interesting, but I'm still at a loss as to where he gets it. I already mentioned that the Latin editions of Josephus support the Vulgate reading (I am inclined to think this is due to a harmonization with the Western scriptures), so Lodge's reading is unsurprising. If Thompson is actually from the original Greek, that is interesting, but Whiston and Thackeray aren't omitting this — their Greek text does not say it, and so their translation is accurate.

As to your speculation about punctuation in Lodge, it's not just a matter of fiddling with punctuation (which Josephus and ancient translations would not have used anyway); the endings of the words would have to be completely different to support your speculation. I don't have the Latin edition handy, so I can't make a comment about how much would have to be changed.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2019, 10:40:43 PM »
Here is a fascinating video:


It has lots of interesting information on a range of Biblical subjects. I learned a lot.

But most of all it points out that there were good motives for the Jews to corrupt the Masoretic text. St. Paul refers to Jews in his own day who were falsifying genealogies in order to discredit Jesus as the new High Priest.

 
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2019, 03:23:09 PM »
Do we know that the Jews were falsifying genealogies for that particular reason (Jesus as new High Priest), or if they were referencing the given genealogies in regards to Joseph or Mary and contending with them as such? When did maternal lineage become a determination for Jewish identity, and what, if any, effect would that have on Levitical/Melchizedech claims?

The argument in the video stems from a theory it seems, and he is using Paul to justify the theory. But what proof is there that such a theory was what Paul was referencing?
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Offline Kreuzritter

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2019, 01:24:46 PM »
There are all sorts of shenanigans in the Old Testament, and not just in the Masoretic like with Psalm 110 (109) verse 3.

Take this one from Isaiah 6:13

"Yet   וְעֹ֥וד
(ve·'o·vd)
there will be a tenth portion   עֲשִׂ֣רִיָּ֔ה
(a·si·ri·yah,)
in it, And it will again   וְשָׁ֖בָה
(ve·sha·vah)
be [subject] to burning,   לְבָעֵ֑ר
(le·va·'er;)
Like a terebinth   כָּאֵלָ֣ה
(ka·'e·lah)
or an oak   וְכָאַלֹּ֗ון
(ve·cha·'al·lo·vn)
Whose   אֲשֶׁ֤ר
(a·sher)

stump   
remains when   

it is felled.   בְּשַׁלֶּ֙כֶת֙
(be·shal·le·chet)
The holy   קֹ֖דֶשׁ
(ko·desh)   
seed   זֶ֥רַע
(ze·ra)
is its stump.

Yup. That tenth portion remaining bit and it being burned again doesn't make sense. But when you compare Asherah אֲשֵׁרָ֑ה which would more likely have been Ashratah with "a·si·ri·yah" and "a·sher", and consider the "Asherah" in the temple was the image of a tree which was indeed burned, you're presented with a text that begins to make perfect sense, and when you start thinking about the Tree of Life imagery surrounding Mary and Jesus as the holy seed and fruit of her womb, and that le·va·'er can also refer to consuming by eating, you'd better get ready to take a trip down the rabbit hole. But I don't want to speculate, and thanks to the New Testament of the body and blood of Jesus Christ resotred ot the temple, I don't need to.

If they falsified things AFTER Jesus, and before him  they "corrected" things like Genesis 18:22 on record, what else did they do to the texts? A jot here. A little there. Vowels and single letters were absolutely fair game as per the Temple Scribes' own rules. But who even knows, and who knows the full story of what went on with Hezekiah, the reforms of Josiah, and the disappearance of the kings and political ascendancy of the Levitical priest caste.
 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 01:31:31 PM by Kreuzritter »
 
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Offline Padraig

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Re: Three Jewish witnesses: She will crush your head, in Gen 3:15
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2019, 07:02:24 PM »
Here is a fascinating video:


It has lots of interesting information on a range of Biblical subjects. I learned a lot.

But most of all it points out that there were good motives for the Jews to corrupt the Masoretic text. St. Paul refers to Jews in his own day who were falsifying genealogies in order to discredit Jesus as the new High Priest.

That was one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen. It's always incredible when something that never would have crossed your radar completely changes your view on a subject.
 
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