Author Topic: Nature Journal: Chimpanzee and Human Y Chromosome dramatically divergent.  (Read 1689 times)

Offline Pon de Replay

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I think you may be slightly confused about Piltdown Man, Xavier.  It was, indeed, a hoax.  But the hoax was uncovered by evolutionary scientists themselves who examined the bones and concluded they had been deliberately cobbled together to give the appearance of a missing link.  So Piltdown Man is no evidence of a grand conspiracy of some many-tentacled cabal, since it was the scientific community which ultimately debunked it.  Piltdown Man is evidence of either 1. opportunists within the scientific community or 2. pranksters.  Or, if we really wanted to put on the tinfoil hat, we could surmise that it was perpetrated by creationists, with the intention of making evolutionists look bad.  As it stands, however, the moral of the story is simply this: always be skeptical and examine the evidence.  The truth will set you free.

Some questions for our friends who support evolution here (1) How did the Y chromosome become so dramatically divergent in chimps and apes if we allegedly inherited it from the LCA? It's no good to refer to the alleged similarities in other parts, your theory requires the whole to have descended. (2) If it requires at minimum an estimated 300 million years to happen, how can you squeeze it into the 6 million years timeframe without begging the question - where is the proof common descent happened in the first place, and why doesn't this falsify it?

Because, again, Y-chromosomal DNA does not measure the totality of our genetic similarities.  The going theories for how the Y-chromosomal DNA became so divergent are included in the article that you yourself posted.  We do not see a stampede of evolutionary scientists frantically running for the exits over this.  It does not falsify the genetic comparisons.  As for question number two, it doesn't require 300 million years.  The three hundred million years was reference to the differences in autosomal DNA between humans and chickens, not Y-chromosomal.

(3) What would falsify common descent, and why? How much divergence precisely do you need before you will accept two species do not share a common ancestor

There was a biologist who was once asked what evidence could be presented to him that would cause him to doubt evolution.  His answer was "fossil rabbits in the Precambrian!"  On the DNA side, it's hard to say.  We've already compared our DNA with primates and other mammals, and DNA incontrovertibly confirms the tree of descent.  I guess if a heretofore unknown species of frog was discovered in the Amazon, and if there was found to be more commonality between its DNA and humans than there is between humans and chimps, then that would be extraordinary.  It would massively call into question the reliability of DNA, DNA modelling, and the going theories of descent; DNA would be effectively toast, or there would have to be a theory about how humans were descended from some frog-like aliens who arrived here from outer space.  It would be on a magnitude of the earth being discovered to be flat.

Give it another 30 years, and evolution will be decimated, proven a false hypothesis, and men and women will wonder how we ever believed it.

Peace be with you, Xavier, but you and I clearly have very different ideas about what the world is going to look like in thirty years.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 10:01:09 AM by Pon de Replay »
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Offline Pon de Replay

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One of the things that convinced me my daughter was pretty special was when at the age of 3 or 4 she could hold onto jungle gym bars at the local playground for crazy periods of time (well over 3 mins).  She had incredibly strong and durable grip.  I tested a few other kids and realized she was freakishly able to cope with pain.  She swang on those bars just like an ape.  Even when it was getting agonizing in her fingers she still managed another 30-40 seconds.

Experiment for Xavier: take a human child, a chimpanzee, and a chicken.  Place each one within a jungle gym and observe its performance.  Then consider common descent.

Offline GloriaPatri

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Xavier, your argument is basically circular: The Church has infallible authority because the Bible says so, and the Bible is inerrant because the Church says so. Such an argument is worthless. Provide better evidence or simply admit that you have none.

As far as your claimed miracles: nearly every religion on this Earth claims to have the means to perform miracles. Why should I take your claims seriously and not the claims of everyone else?
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Nature Journal: Chimpanzee and Human Y Chromosome dramatically divergent.
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2019, 11:51:38 AM »
No, GP, you are mistaken, just as is your 99% claim. One to one matches in Chimp and Human DNA are now known (with about 95% certainty, since the full genome hasn't been sequenced yet) to be less than 85%.

As for God, Christ and the Church, you can take that up in the non-Catholic forum; the Truth of God's existence is proven against atheists and agnostics by reason, philosophy, natural law, conscience and even strictly scientific Design inferences. The fact of Jesus Christ's crucifixion and certain other such things as the empty tomb, His Apostles' sincere conviction that He had risen etc are almost universally admitted and provable historical facts. From these effects, the Truth of the Resurrection is deduced. Then, among Christians, we prove the Catholic Church to be the true Church from Scripture and Tradition. It is clear.

Now, The data for the Chimp Y chromosome is sufficient to exclude common descent as a scientific hypothesis, here it is again from Creation, "The 30% difference among human and chimp MSY regions was a shock. This amount of difference was expected between the autosomes of human and something like chicken (to use their example), and chicken is not even a mammal. Finding this much difference in one of the sex chromosomes was huge. When they looked at the gene content of the two respective chromosomes, they were additionally surprised to find that there were many fewer genes in chimp and many more genes in man, with “only two-thirds as many distinct genes or gene families as the human MSY, and only half as many protein-coding transcription units.” That is, they found huge differences in the number and type of genes on the two Y chromosomes and were forced to claim massive gene loss or gain as the evolutionary mechanism responsible. Design was not considered as a possible answer (of course) ..."

Again, GP, your theory requires the whole man to have descended and therefore must account for the dramatic Y chromosome difference. You postulate a missing link chimp like ancestor which almost certainly could never have evolved into men and modern apes in the given 6 million years, since the difference involved is too great.

Peace be with you, too, Pon. I feel it won't even be 25 years now. There were at least 3 astonishingly important discoveries in the last year or so, all bad for evolution, and they will be studied in the decades to come.

To all evolutionists: what number are you looking for - will 10% DNA dissimilarity finally convince you common descent is a secularist myth? Will 20% y chromosome differences convince you of the same? Why or why not? What number must be reached? We've shown you 30%, 33% in the chromosomes and up to 50% in protein coding units as shown above.

Men especially should never ever support evolution again after this!

Eta: I must however differ respectfully about what is the moral of the Piltdown man (which Creation Scientists Scientifically deduced to be a hoax first, in 1920, 3 decades before evolutionists) hoax. The true moral is this, and may we all take note: "don't ever allow your priceless Christian Faith to be wrecked on evolutionist myths (like the 99% myth)." 1953 was too late for those former Christians who lost Faith because of the Piltdown lie and died earlier than that.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 07:27:57 PM by Xavier »
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Nature Journal: Chimpanzee and Human Y Chromosome dramatically divergent.
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2019, 08:43:21 AM »
I honestly think you're shooting at the wrong goal, Xavier.

You're trying to make universal common descent falsified whereas the correct goal is to show that it is unfalsifiable, just as is common design.  It's the same thing as fine-tuning vs. a multiverse.  You can't, even in theory, empirically disprove a multiverse (since by definition we can only have evidence about the one we exist in), but the point is it's a position adopted for philosophical reasons and not based on the evidence - and can't be, since any and all evidence would be both consistent with it and with its falsity.  It's not true, however, that the fine-tuning argument holds even given a multiverse with sufficiently many universes, as I explained to you before.

So, here, I can certainly come up with a hypothetical Y chromosome in a hypothetical common ancestor which is consistent with the data from humans and chimps; and unfortunately, we do not have genetic sequencing of that hypothetical common ancestor which would empirically disprove this.  You can dismiss this as "evolutionist just-so storytelling" all you wish but the fact of the matter that as long as some "story" remains possible the hypothesis is not falsified; the evidence can be made to fit it.

Where you want to go, I think, instead, is to show that common descent is unfalsifiable just like the multiverse, and thus it is held for philosophical reasons.