Author Topic: Nature Journal: Chimpanzee and Human Y Chromosome dramatically divergent.  (Read 1161 times)

Offline Xavier

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An article in the Scientific Journal Nature shows a further insuperable difficulty for the proponents of the theory that chimps/bonobos/orangutans/baboons are our parents/relatives/cousins/siblings or whatever else is the latest ever-evolving theory of evolution: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature08700 The lesson here is that it is always necessary to separate evolutionist spin from scientific fact.

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Abstract

The human Y chromosome began to evolve from an autosome hundreds of millions of years ago, acquiring a sex-determining function and undergoing a series of inversions that suppressed crossing over with the X chromosome1,2. Little is known about the recent evolution of the Y chromosome because only the human Y chromosome has been fully sequenced. Prevailing theories hold that Y chromosomes evolve by gene loss, the pace of which slows over time, eventually leading to a paucity of genes, and stasis3,4. These theories have been buttressed by partial sequence data from newly emergent plant and animal Y chromosomes5,6,7,8, but they have not been tested in older, highly evolved Y chromosomes such as that of humans. Here we finished sequencing of the male-specific region of the Y chromosome (MSY) in our closest living relative, the chimpanzee, achieving levels of accuracy and completion previously reached for the human MSY. By comparing the MSYs of the two species we show that they differ radically in sequence structure and gene content, indicating rapid evolution during the past 6 million years. The chimpanzee MSY contains twice as many massive palindromes as the human MSY, yet it has lost large fractions of the MSY protein-coding genes and gene families present in the last common ancestor. We suggest that the extraordinary divergence of the chimpanzee and human MSYs was driven by four synergistic factors: the prominent role of the MSY in sperm production, ‘genetic hitchhiking’ effects in the absence of meiotic crossing over, frequent ectopic recombination within the MSY, and species differences in mating behaviour. Although genetic decay may be the principal dynamic in the evolution of newly emergent Y chromosomes, wholesale renovation is the paramount theme in the continuing evolution of chimpanzee, human and perhaps other older MSYs.

An old earth creation site reports on the discovery here: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/human_y_chromosome.html

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Reactions to the study

Scientists have been rather surprised at the differences seen between the human and chimpanzee Y chromosome. Christine Disteche (University of Washington) said, "It's expected that they are going to be more different than the rest of the genome, but the extent of it is pretty amazing."5 According to the authors of the study, "Indeed, at 6 million years of separation, the difference in MSY gene content in chimpanzee and human is more comparable to the difference in autosomal gene content in chicken and human, at 310 million years of separation."4 David Page (program leader at the Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research) said, "It looks like there's been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages."5 He also called the chromosomes, "horrendously different from each other."5 The only thing that makes the difference "horrendous" is the fact that it doesn't fit the evolutionary paradigm.

Conclusion

Although previous genetic studies had suggested that human- chimpanzee differences were greater than first thought, the latest sequencing data is a bombshell. The human Y chromosome is dramatically different from that of our "nearest living relative," the chimpanzee - up to 50% different. The sequence is so different, that if it had occurred in an autosomal chromosome, such a change would represent that seen between chickens and humans over a period of 310 million years. Described as being "horrendously different," the sequence change is virtually unexplainable over the 6-7 million years between the hypothesized chimp-human split.

References

[1] Completion of the First Survey of the Entire Human Genome (June 26, 2000).
[2] Britten, R.J. 2002. Divergence between samples of chimpanzee and human is 5%, counting indels. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 99: 13633-16335.
[3] The ENCODE Project Consortium. 2007. Identification and analysis of functional elements in 1% of the human genome by the ENCODE pilot project. Nature 447: 799-816.
[4] Hughes, J.F. et al. 2010. Chimpanzee and human Y chromosomes are remarkably divergent in structure and gene content. Nature doi:10.1038/nature08700.
[5] Buchen, L. 2010. The fickle Y chromosome. Nature doi:10.1038/463149a.
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Offline Michael Wilson

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I'm going to celebrate this by eating a banana!
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Offline Xavier

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And I'm tempted to go swinging wildly on a tree! Maybe it's in my genes?
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Offline Pon de Replay

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And I'm tempted to go swinging wildly on a tree! Maybe it's in my genes?

It is.  Brachiation is a relatively recent loss.  It's still in your hands (which are just like those of the other apes, beneficial for grasping) and your flexible shoulder joints.  Watch any child go to town on a jungle gym (apt name).  As for the "dramatically divergent" Y-chromosomes of humans and chimps, it's to be expected.  We aren't descended from chimps.  We are simply different branches from a common ape ancestor.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Yes, that's the claim, but this discovery poses very serious problems for it, because as the article explains the Y chromosome of our (alleged) nearest living relative is now demonstrably known to be more than 50% divergent from that of our own - comparable to the difference between us and chickens. If evolutionists will just claim chickens and all other species also ultimately came from one single-celled ancestor(which ultimately serves to make the argument from visible similarities meaningless, because chickens and human beings are dramatically different visibly) if we just go back far enough, the refutation is that 6 million years is not enough for that evolutionary change even by evolutionary standards, but 300 million or so years would be required. And therefore, even if evolutionists want to claim other species evolved, they should recognize humans never did so, but were specially created by a loving God and Father. For in 6 million years, this mythical lca could not have branched out to modern apes and humans demonstrating such large differences in their Y chromosomes.

Also, as mentioned in the evolutionist article on the other thread, which worries that the missing link is still missing (already and in itself a demonstration to scientific certainty that evolution from apes to men never happened, because such would have left millions of fossils as a trace and proof of the event) "Gorillas and chimps were not simply our sister species: they were also a lot like the LCA ... at this time the world really was the Planet of the Apes ... Schwartz is adamant that it is orangutans, not chimpanzees, that are our sister species." there is dispute as to whom the credit should go? Orangutans? Gorillas? Which is the true sister species and which is the most like the alleged common ancestor?

Rev. Williams pokes a little mild fun at such claims in his article: "If the progeny of this ape-like ancestor inter-bred for many generations--as certainly would have been the case--then we are not only descended from all the monkey family, the baboon, gorilla, ape, chimpanzee, orang-utang femur (H. G. Wells' ancestor), mongoose, etc., but are also related to all their progeny. Glorious ancestors! In our veins runs the blood of them all, as well as the blood of the most disgusting reptiles. And yet Professor H. H. Newman, an eminent evolutionist, in a letter to the writer, says, "The evolution idea is an ennobling one!"
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 11:43:01 AM by Xavier »
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Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

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Offline Pon de Replay

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Yes, that's the claim, but this discovery poses very serious problems for it, because as the article explains the Y chromosome of our (alleged) nearest living relative is now demonstrably known to be more than 50% divergent from that of our own - comparable to the difference between us and chickens. If evolutionists will just claim chickens and all other species also ultimately came from one single-celled ancestor(which ultimately serves to make the argument from visible similarities meaningless, because chickens and human beings are dramatically different visibly) if we just go back far enough, the refutation is that 6 million years is not enough for that evolutionary change even by evolutionary standards, but 300 million or so years would be required. And therefore, even if evolutionists want to claim other species evolved, they should recognize humans never did so, but were specially created by a loving God and Father. For in 6 million years, this mythical lca could not have branched out to modern apes and humans demonstrating such large differences in their Y chromosomes.

I'm afraid it doesn't pose the "very serious problems" you think it does; the article you quoted lists "four synergistic factors" to account for it.  Remember, too, that Y-chromosomal DNA is a small portion of the genome; this has no significant bearing on the DNA commonality we share with chimps as opposed to chickens.  If creationists think evolution is some sort of Hebraeo-Satanic-Marxist conspiracy, then why do they think evolutionists would show these (alleged) chinks in the evolutionary armor by openly publishing these findings?  Wouldn't they just invent a fake study instead that shores up an absolutamente Y-chromosomal link between chimps and humans?  It's all very curious.
 
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Offline Miriam_M

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The idea that we are "descended" from animals lower than us is illogical on its face.  The concept makes no sense in terms of divinely ordained hierarchy, not to mention spirituality. 

In terms of all of the "similarities" and apparent connections biologically, anything's possible, but as others have pointed out often, species are separate.  It is more logical and believable that God's creation is cohesive to the point where His hand -- not a so-called Mother Nature independent of God (and as or more powerful than our Heavenly Father) -- designed a harmonic whole, but the continuous thread would not be a random force operating on its own ("evolution") but God's hand/life. 

In any case, there's no need to be "in awe of " an invented "Mother Nature."  God is the Author of all forces in the universe -- the laws of physics, chemistry, etc.   Principles of life and creation did not create themselves -- something else that's illogical.  All natural law is under the sovereignty of divine law.  Otherwise, God is not sovereign, not omnipotent, and not the only Creator.
 
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Offline GloriaPatri

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The idea that we are "descended" from animals lower than us is illogical on its face.  The concept makes no sense in terms of divinely ordained hierarchy, not to mention spirituality. 

In terms of all of the "similarities" and apparent connections biologically, anything's possible, but as others have pointed out often, species are separate.  It is more logical and believable that God's creation is cohesive to the point where His hand -- not a so-called Mother Nature independent of God (and as or more powerful than our Heavenly Father) -- designed a harmonic whole, but the continuous thread would not be a random force operating on its own ("evolution") but God's hand/life. 

In any case, there's no need to be "in awe of " an invented "Mother Nature."  God is the Author of all forces in the universe -- the laws of physics, chemistry, etc.   Principles of life and creation did not create themselves -- something else that's illogical.  All natural law is under the sovereignty of divine law.  Otherwise, God is not sovereign, not omnipotent, and not the only Creator.

And yet you provide no actual evidence or proofs for your assertions, Miriam. You have no evidence that nature subscribes to a "divinely ordained hierarchy," and even if it did, who's to say that they hierarchy is anything like you conceive it to be? Fact is, man is an animal that has, over a period of hundred of thousands to millions of years, evolved from an ancestor that we share with other primates. Sure, the genes that environmental pressure lead us to possessing a far more advanced central nervous system, but on the same hand we lost multiple traits possessed by our primate cousins.
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Offline Miriam_M

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You have no evidence that nature subscribes to a "divinely ordained hierarchy," and even if it did, who's to say that they hierarchy is anything like you conceive it to be?

The Roman Catholic Church, that's who, and she takes those principles from Sacred Scripture.  Nature does not "subscribe" to anything, because nature is controlled by God, not the other way around.  What happens in nature is either God's active will or permissive will.

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Sure, the genes that environmental pressure lead us to possessing a far more advanced central nervous system, but on the same hand we lost multiple traits possessed by our primate cousins.

Such "loss" is not the definition of superiority, and chimpanzees were not made in the image of God, but man was.  This is what the Church calls Revelation, to which every baptized Catholic is bound to assent as the Church defines and delineates that Revelation.

And funny, this is a Traditional Catholic discussion forum.  There are plenty of natural scientists who are also practicing Catholics, by the way.  There is not an inevitable contradiction between the two.
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Offline Xavier

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Pon, the Catholic Church has confiscated documents in Her possession showing evolution was designed (pun intended) and propagandized as a deliberate lie: of course, many good people are duped by the lie. Everyone remembers the Piltdown man hoax right, that's not even the tip of the iceberg, "In 1912, Charles Dawson, an amateur archaeologist in England, claimed he’d made one of the most important fossil discoveries ever. Ultimately, however, his “Piltdown Man” proved to be a hoax. By cleverly pairing a human skull with an orangutan’s jaw – stained to match and give the appearance of age – a mysterious forger duped the scientific world. In the decades between the find’s unearthing and the revelation it was fraudulent, people in the United States and around the world learned about Piltdown Man as a “missing link” connecting ape and man. Newspaper articles, scientific publications and museum exhibitions all presented Piltdown Man as a legitimate scientific discovery supporting a particular vision of human evolution."

It's like fractional reserve central banking. One of the greatest and longest lasting scams. There the motive is greed. Here, it is pride that wants to do away with a loving God, our Father, Who made us in His own image, without needing chimps or gorillas or whatever the lca allegedly was to give birth.

Some questions for our friends who support evolution here (1) How did the Y chromosome become so dramatically divergent in chimps and apes if we allegedly inherited it from the LCA? It's no good to refer to the alleged similarities in other parts, your theory requires the whole to have descended. (2) If it requires at minimum an estimated 300 million years to happen, how can you squeeze it into the 6 million years timeframe without begging the question - where is the proof common descent happened in the first place, and why doesn't this falsify it? (3) What would falsify common descent, and why? How much divergence precisely do you need before you will accept two species do not share a common ancestor (4) and the last one is a Q.E.D. You simply cannot rely on internal alleged similarities (while ignoring differences) while ignoring the elephant in the room of the millions of expected fossils of the missing link ancestor (of which there would be millions over the timeframe in branching out to humans and apes) that should have turned up at least in the thousands by now. Unless this clever ape cunningly buried all the fossils of his progeny to hide the transition from the LCA to man, either evolution never happened, or we would have discovered thousands of missing link ancestor fossils that are still missing. So, what happened?

Ergo, evolution never happened. And this is a scam to keep men away from God, your Father, Who loves you, and is calling you to come back to His arms. Give it another 30 years, and evolution will be decimated, proven a false hypothesis, and men and women will wonder how we ever believed it.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/chimpanzees/genetics/chimpanzee-y-chromosome-2010.html

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"So much for 98 percent. Let me just repeat part of that: humans and chimpanzees, “comparable to the difference … in chicken and human”.

This is from a new paper that’s just shown up in the Nature advance publication zone. The authors are Jennifer Hughes and colleagues, and the subject is the first complete sequencing of the chimpanzee Y chromosome. “MSY” stands for “male-specific region of the Y chromosome” – it’s most of the Y, aside from a small fraction that recombines with the X chromosome. The Y chromos'ome was part of the initial chimpanzee genome draft, and was recognized then as a “clear outlier” in showing low human-chimpanzee sequence similarity (Chimpanzee Genome Consortium 2005). But it wasn’t obvious just how different it was because the relatively short sequencing reads aligned fairly well with the human draft. That comparison also seems not to have included the missing genes (they might have just been missed during sequencing), or duplications. Moreover, the Y chromosome includes a high fraction of repetitive sequence, including long front-to-back, or “palindromic” passages. Only with very long reads with long overlaps is it possible to straighten out the large-scale sequence, and thereby detect sequence reorganizations and large copy number variants. This kind of intensive sequencing has so far been completed only for chromosome 21 and now the Y chromosome. I can’t believe how sedated the reaction to this paper has been so far. The outcome of the sequencing is really, really weird. More than thirty percent of the chimpanzee Y chromosome has no homolog in humans, and likewise for the human Y in chimpanzees."

A common designer rather than common descent is a perfectly legitimate inference, and one better supported by the scientific evidence. Evolutionists are still laboring under the "scientific atheism" lie and don't realize science is not about being naturalistic (some of the best scientists in history were Christians) but about discovering reality. Did common descent happen? If so, the evidence, including the chromosomal and fossil evidence, would support it. If not, we were designed. How is it you a priori exclude the latter, and then call your approach scientific? It's not scientific at all. It's like a forensic scientist going to a crime scene, and saying he will a priori exclude the possibility of deliberate intervention, and maintain the death was accidental no matter what. Even a casual glance tells us the missing link would have turned up by now, if only it were not truly missing because it never existed. https://creation.com/chimp-y-chromosome

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According to many evolutionists, the Y chromosome, the DNA sequence that makes men what they are, is supposed to be a degenerate leftover from our early evolutionary histo'ry. It is small and slightly twisted when in its condensed form, much of it is made of repetitive material, it contains relatively few protein-coding genes, and, since the corresponding X chromosome is so large, the Y chromosome was thought to not do very much. In addition, only a portion of the Y chromosome is different from the X chromosome (the “male specific Y”, or MSY).

Add some modern feminism to the mix, with its disdain for all things male, and one has a recipe for the relegation of the Y chromosome to the dustbin of history. One paper, published in 2009 (by two women, coincidentally), concluded there has been a dramatic loss of genes in the Y chromosomes of eutherians (placental mammals) and that the Y chromosome will eventually disappear if that loss continues.1 Of course, this is based on the belief that the X and Y chromosomes were once identical (there are, after all, two copies of all the other chromosomes) and that the Y chromosome is not a design feature. It also ignores the fact that every eutherian lineage still has a Y chromosome. They should have concluded that this little chromosome must be extremely important, since not one of the many species of placental mammals have lost it over the last 100 million years or so (using their dating scheme). Rather, they made some conclusions from faulty starting assumptions and decided the Y chromosome is vestigial. This is but one example of many that could be cited to illustrate this modern trend.

Using Y chromosome sequence data, one can build a family tree of Y chromosomes and use it to chart historical migration patterns of people across the world. Early work discovered that all human males have very similar Y chromosomes. This led to the conclusion that there was a single male ancestor for the entire world population, called Y-Chromosome Adam.

Humans and chimps are very different and this is born out in comparisons of Y chromosomes.

A new study published on the Y chromosome of chimpanzees has surprised many. After a lot of work, the chimpanzee Y chromosome has finally been finished.7 This may come as a surprise to many who thought the chimpanzee genome was completed way back in 2005. Actually, the original chimpanzee genome construction was less than optimal as they did not sequence it to the same standards of the human genome. Rather, they used the human genome as a “scaffold” to reconstruct the chimpanzee genome. This created several problems and the worst being with the repetitive sequences. There are some considerable differences between the repetitive regions of the human and chimp genomes, and, since, the Y chromosome is extremely repetitive, the chimpanzee version was essentially left unfinished. Even today, the human Y chromosome is still only half-sequenced. The chimp chromosome was left in a worse state, but the current work mostly corrects the previous deficiencies.

Since Y chromosomes are small and since it is assumed they evolved from a larger chromosome, it is assumed that their evolutionary history included the loss of many genes. On top of this, the evolution of the Y chromosome is supposed to slow down as the chromosome loses more and more genes. This was not the conclusion of the paper, however, for they found remarkable differences between man and chimpanzee, including radical differences in the sequence and gene content of the corresponding MSY regions. Because of these huge differences, the researchers concluded that the chimpanzee has lost many of the MSY protein-coding genes, even entire gene families, since we supposedly diverged from the last common ancestor. Those are significant changes. David Page, who led the chimp Y chromosome sequencing project, said the two chromosomes are, “… horrendously different from each other … It looks like there’s been a dramatic renovation or reinvention of the Y chromosome in the chimpanzee and human lineages.”8

The 30% difference among human and chimp MSY regions was a shock. This amount of difference was expected between the autosomes of human and something like chicken (to use their example), and chicken is not even a mammal. Finding this much difference in one of the sex chromosomes was huge. When they looked at the gene content of the two respective chromosomes, they were additionally surprised to find that there were many fewer genes in chimp and many more genes in man, with “only two-thirds as many distinct genes or gene families as the human MSY, and only half as many protein-coding transcription units.” That is, they found huge differences in the number and type of genes on the two Y chromosomes and were forced to claim massive gene loss or gain as the evolutionary mechanism responsible. Design was not considered as a possible answer (of course) ...

 [b\The idea that the Y chromosome is evolving at a high rate is based on the assumption of common ancestry. But there is an extremely low level of variation between human Y chromosomes, which would not be expected if they were mutating at a high rate[/b], and so there is no real evidence for any evolutionary changes within these chromosomes. Most of the sequencing of the chimp Y chromosome was from a single male, however, so we do not know the divergence of chimps from one another.

This is evidence that humans and chimpanzees are very different.

What are the implications of this new information? First, for the evolutionist, the Y chromosomes must be evolving much more quickly than anyone imagined previously (“evolving faster” is ‘evospeak’ for “very different”). They are now going to have to apply mathematical models to try to demonstrate how a sequence can change extremely rapidly, including wholesale rearrangement of significant parts and the evolution of entire gene families in a relatively short amount of time, yet stay homogeneous within a species. This is going to be very difficult for them.

Second, for the creationist, we now know that the old “humans and chimps are 99% identical” canard is passé. Interestingly, a significant paper appeared in 2007 calling the 99% rule “a myth” and claiming that we have known for decades that humans and chimps were much more different.9 But this has been a significant and powerful evolutionary argument. How many people had their faith wrecked on those “mythical” rocks? Now we have half of the chimpanzee Y chromosome and learn that it is only 70% identical to human. This is evidence that humans and chimpanzees are very different. How different? To quote the famous geneticist, Svante Pääbo, “I don’t think there’s any way to calculate a number … In the end, it’s a political and social and cultural thing about how we see our differences.”5 This statement was made before the chimp Y chromosome data became available. If the number is incalculable, can we not jettison every evolutionary story of chimp-human common ancestry based on genetics? The new data on the chimp Y chromosome makes the case for common ancestry that much worse.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 02:13:57 AM by Xavier »
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Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

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Offline GloriaPatri

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You have no evidence that nature subscribes to a "divinely ordained hierarchy," and even if it did, who's to say that they hierarchy is anything like you conceive it to be?

The Roman Catholic Church, that's who, and she takes those principles from Sacred Scripture.  Nature does not "subscribe" to anything, because nature is controlled by God, not the other way around.  What happens in nature is either God's active will or permissive will.

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Sure, the genes that environmental pressure lead us to possessing a far more advanced central nervous system, but on the same hand we lost multiple traits possessed by our primate cousins.

Such "loss" is not the definition of superiority, and chimpanzees were not made in the image of God, but man was.  This is what the Church calls Revelation, to which every baptized Catholic is bound to assent as the Church defines and delineates that Revelation.

And funny, this is a Traditional Catholic discussion forum.  There are plenty of natural scientists who are also practicing Catholics, by the way.  There is not an inevitable contradiction between the two.

And yet the Church is wrong. As are your interpretation of the scriptures. Your appeal to authority is meaningless Miriam, especially when you have no evidence on your side. All you are doing is making pious assertions based on assumptions that I do not share. So either provide some empirical evidence for your claims, or admit that you have none and are substituting the subjective claims of faith for the objective claims of reason.
 
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Offline Xavier

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And yet the Church is wrong.


It is you who are in the wrong. The Church is the one Ark in which alone we can be saved. All they who desert Her will perish in the flood of sin.

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As are your interpretation of the scriptures.

But you have no authority to interpret them. The Church alone received from Christ the Keys and the Commission to teach and interpret His Word and She alone can rightly do it.

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Your appeal to authority is meaningless Miriam

And yet you presume to appeal to your own non-existent authority to tell us what the true "interpretation of the Scriptures" should be!

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especially when you have no evidence on your side

The evidence is documented in detail above. All of evolution is a fraud just like Piltdown man was. Man never evolved from apes, and the fossil evidence demonstrates it conclusively. The Y chromosome of Men and modern chimps being so dramatically divergent is empirical confirmation no mythical common ancestor ever existed. The common ancestor is as much a fraud as your Piltdown man was. You lied to and deceived the world for 40 years and destroyed the Faith of millions. Piltdown man never existed. The only thing true about your missing link is that it is now and forever will be missing. 

We will pray for your soul, GloriaPatri. You are in error. Like many others, you have been duped by the evolutionist lie, and have fallen into the practical godlessness it inevitably engenders.
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.
 

Offline Greg

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One of the things that convinced me my daughter was pretty special was when at the age of 3 or 4 she could hold onto jungle gym bars at the local playground for crazy periods of time (well over 3 mins).  She had incredibly strong and durable grip.  I tested a few other kids and realized she was freakishly able to cope with pain.  She swang on those bars just like an ape.  Even when it was getting agonizing in her fingers she still managed another 30-40 seconds.
Retired to Rivendell.
 

Offline GloriaPatri

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And yet the Church is wrong.


It is you who are in the wrong. The Church is the one Ark in which alone we can be saved. All they who desert Her will perish in the flood of sin.

Quote
As are your interpretation of the scriptures.

But you have no authority to interpret them. The Church alone received from Christ the Keys and the Commission to teach and interpret His Word and She alone can rightly do it.

Quote
Your appeal to authority is meaningless Miriam

And yet you presume to appeal to your own non-existent authority to tell us what the true "interpretation of the Scriptures" should be!

Quote
especially when you have no evidence on your side

The evidence is documented in detail above. All of evolution is a fraud just like Piltdown man was. Man never evolved from apes, and the fossil evidence demonstrates it conclusively. The Y chromosome of Men and modern chimps being so dramatically divergent is empirical confirmation no mythical common ancestor ever existed. The common ancestor is as much a fraud as your Piltdown man was. You lied to and deceived the world for 40 years and destroyed the Faith of millions. Piltdown man never existed. The only thing true about your missing link is that it is now and forever will be missing. 

We will pray for your soul, GloriaPatri. You are in error. Like many others, you have been duped by the evolutionist lie, and have fallen into the practical godlessness it inevitably engenders.

Again, a bunch of pious exclamations but no evidence.

How do you know that the Church is what it claims to be? How do you know the Bible is the word of God, as opposed to the Quran, or the Hindu Vedas?

And as far as interpreting the scriptures, I claim no authority. As far as I am concerned, they're not the word of God point blank, since they teach things that are verifiably false.

And again, as Son already pointed out, the Y chromosome is only a small portion of both the human and chimpanzee genome. We still share 99% of our DNA with them. Just as we share 98% of our DNA with gorillas. All of this points to common descent. Just as you are genetically close to your immediate relatives, with a small but growing divergence with humans more distantly related to you.
 

Offline Xavier

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How do you know that the Church is what it claims to be?

Easy. By virtue of the miracles Christ has worked in Her, for one. Observe Eucharistic miracles, that on the Shroud of Turin and the Tilma of Guadalupe, and finally the myriad and countless ones in the lives of the Saints, from St. Patrick to St. Francis Xavier to, more recently, say, St. Padre Pio.

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How do you know the Bible is the word of God

Because Jesus Christ vouches for its authenticity through His Church. And beside the miracles He worked in His life and works daily in His Church, the stupendous prophesies He fulfilled are yet another "motive of credibility" showing He is the true God. For, to take just a few, it was written Messiah would give His life for sin like a Lamb, yet as Priest of the order of Melchizedek would institute the Perfect Sacrifice, be raised up to heaven, and receive adoration from people of all nations. All this Jesus Christ has visibly done, showing He is divine and has perfect power over everything.

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share 99%

This claim was debunked way back in 2007. It is based on selectively choosing some traits and being completely blind to everything else. And now it is to be totally rejected after this 2010 study. Again, your theory requires the complete man to have descended. Therefore it must account for the Y chromosomal difference or be rejected. Why are there not many thousands of fossils of the missing link alongside the millions of men and apes? Please reflect on that before making extravagant extrapolations from very limited similarities. You no more descended from monkeys than you did from rabbits or from oranges. And the evidence for your alleged common descent from either is about the same.

God created pairs of all the species from the beginning, exactly as the Prophet Moses knew through historical Tradition and was taught by special revelation in Genesis. The first chicken did not come from the egg but was directly created by Almighty God. And so for all life. And every species was given the power to reproduce within its own kind. Not that chickens will give rise to monkeys or reptiles to man or any evolutionist fancy. Evolutionism cannot get off the ground with explaining why asexually reproducing creatures evolve into sexually reproducing ones, how the irreducible complexity of a cell could have evolved, how all this allegedly happened many times, and much else besides. The explanation of Genesis is precise, perfect and prescient.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2018, 10:15:06 AM by Xavier »
Please listen to the frequent messages and take heed of the directions given from Our Living Lord and Our Loving Lady from around the world here: https://maryrefugeofholylove.com/ Great things are at stake. Please consecrate your life to the Blessed Mother so that the Kingdom of God may come, "Ad Sanctam Trinitatem per Mariam, Ut adveniat Regnum Deum, adveniat Regnum Mariae, ergo TOTUS TUUS ego sum, MARIA" See http://www.maria-domina-animarum.net/en/flowers/1-250

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ It is recommended that you make this Life Offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

Please read the Blessed Mother's amazing promises in the link: A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. The Doctors and Apostles say if we save even just one other soul through prayer and sacrifice, we also ensure the salvation of our own! Let us Offer our Lives in Sacrifice to Jesus and Mary Today, to save, if it were possible, all souls everywhere.