Author Topic: True liturgical history  (Read 309 times)

Offline Kephapaulos

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True liturgical history
« on: July 09, 2018, 02:57:56 PM »
What can you recommend for other sources of true liturgical history? I gathered from Fr. Ripperger and Tradition in Action that Fr. Jungmann's works are not to be taken seriously. I am thinking of books such as The Mass by Fr. Dunney, How Christ Said the First Mass by Fr. Meagher, the book on the Roman Rite by Fr. Fortescue, and The Liturgical Altar (I don't remember the author of that one and had to pray to St. Anthony to find it). I am particularly interested in the true history about the position of the altar. I thought I had seen a picture of an altar of a church from before the fourth century that has a fixed altar (perhaps in Turkey or Israel?). Also, I imagine the catacombs are good evidence and there is claim of an altar at Heracleum near Pompeii from the first century.

I recall also the claim in Msgr. Gamber's book about the Roman liturgy that the people at St. Peter's would face the east like l the Pope with their backs to him, but I had gathered something about the congregation itself doing that to not likely be true after all. I think Msgr. Gamber's source for Fr. Jungmann for that. Does anyone know anything about that?

Thanks.
 
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Offline Sempronius

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2018, 03:52:41 PM »
Use Google books. Just type "catholic church liturgy" and choose as filter "only free books" then you will get a bunch of books from 19th century and older. Free and good scanned.

Here is one

https://books.google.se/books?id=2f9CAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA23&dq=Catholic+church+liturgy&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZgO3q5JLcAhVDVSwKHTvsCqUQ6AEILjAC#v=onepage&q=Catholic%20church%20liturgy&f=false

 

Offline Sempronius

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2018, 03:56:49 PM »
And the french have good liturgists so if you known french just type "liturgie"
 

Offline VeraeFidei

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2018, 09:03:46 PM »
Banished Heart by Gregory Hull
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2018, 01:55:32 AM »
https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass.html

Fr. Michael Mueller's the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. One of the best books ever written. Deals with history and much more. Explains St. Peter instituted Mass in Latin in Rome. A must read for every Catholic and traditionalist. Especially today. Explains multiplicity of language is a chastisement, as at Babel. Uniformity of language is a blessing, as at Pentecost by a miracle and so in the Church. Speaks of dogma being immutable and the Church rendering Her adoration to His Divine Majesty in the sacred Latin tongue preserves us from falling into error and confusion, and is a safeguard from trying to relativize unchangeable dogmatic truth. Prescient book written a century ago with prophetic insights for our time.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 01:57:43 AM by Xavier »
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion daily, or at least weekly, to offer their lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING: "My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the suffering of my entire life for the adoration and supplication of the Holy Trinity, for unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and priests, for good priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept my life sacrifice and my offerings and give me your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death." Amen. https://www.avemariamaternostra.com/life-offering-promises.html It is recommended that you make this life offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

THE FIVE PROMISES OF OUR HEAVENLY MOTHER TO THOSE WHO OFFER THEIR LIVES TO HER

1. "Their names will be written in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary, inflamed by love.
2. Their life offering, together with the infinite merits of Jesus, can save many souls from damnation.  All souls who will live until the end of the world will benefit from their life offering.
3. None of their family members will go to hell, even if it seems otherwise, because they will receive, in the depths of their souls, the grace of sincere contrition before the soul departs from their bodies.
4. On the day they offer their lives, their loved ones suffering in Purgatory will be released.
5. I will be with them at the hour of their death.  They will not know Purgatory.  I will carry their souls straight to the presence of the Glorious Trinity, where they will live with me in a special place created by God and will rejoice forever."
 
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Offline abc123

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2018, 07:28:12 AM »
https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass.html

Fr. Michael Mueller's the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. One of the best books ever written. Deals with history and much more. Explains St. Peter instituted Mass in Latin in Rome.

I would be interested in learning the source of this claim since it has been well established that Greek was the liturgical language of the Roman church until the 4rd century. In fact the Kyrie still bears witness to this fact.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20091117_lingua-latina_en.html
The Ever-Virgin Mary, crushing within herself—and crushing in the whole human race—the serpent’s head, did not abandon the fallen human race; but by her eternal motherly care, the Ever-Pure Mother petitions her Son and our God for even the most desperate sinners.
For this reason the Mother of God is called ‘the Scourge of the demons’—there is no possibility of the devil ruining a man, provided that man does not cease seeking the aid of the Mother of God.”- St. Seraphim of Sarov

“It is later than you think! Hasten, therefore, to do the work of God.”- Blessed Seraphim Rose
 
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Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2018, 02:42:46 PM »
https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass.html

Fr. Michael Mueller's the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. One of the best books ever written. Deals with history and much more. Explains St. Peter instituted Mass in Latin in Rome. A must read for every Catholic and traditionalist. Especially today. Explains multiplicity of language is a chastisement, as at Babel. Uniformity of language is a blessing, as at Pentecost by a miracle and so in the Church. Speaks of dogma being immutable and the Church rendering Her adoration to His Divine Majesty in the sacred Latin tongue preserves us from falling into error and confusion, and is a safeguard from trying to relativize unchangeable dogmatic truth. Prescient book written a century ago with prophetic insights for our time.

Ah, so Saint Cyril and Methodius caused a chastisement by converting the Slavs to Christianity, and allowing them to use Slavonic. Dang, that's some bold words.

And the Egyptians were also a forerunner of the Antichrist as well by using Coptic, and the Ethiopians were as well by using Ge'ez, or the Armenians for using Armenian in their liturgies for thousands of years!

And as abc123 points at as well, the Romans must've been forerunners of the Antichrist as well by forcing the Latin language on everyone!

Just because Thomas Aquinas wrote in Latin doesn't mean that you need to extinguish beautiful, different liturgical cultural expressions of praising God.

I can understand your argument for preserving Latin in the Roman Rite, but seriously - holding THIS argument as the foundation of your reasoning is really narcissistic, as it implies that anything not in Latin is inferior and must be extinguished.

It's not like the Apostles wore birettas with Fiddleback Chasubles chanting in Gregorian Missa de Angelis "Agnus Dei."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 03:14:20 PM by Livenotonevil »
"Вознеслся еси во славе, Христе Боже наш, радость сотворивый учеником, обетованием Свтаго Духа, извещенным им бывшим благословением, яко Ты еси Сын Божий, Избавитель мира."

May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2018, 09:41:21 PM »
The inscription on the Altar of the Cross was in Hebrew, Greek and Latin. As many Catholic writers explain, the Alleluia is from the Hebrew, the Kyrie from the Greek, and the rest of our Liturgy is in Latin. We accept all the other rites of the Church that Tradition has handed down. This is about retaining Latin in the Roman rite. Pope Benedict XIV, both Pope and scholar, in De Sacrificio Missa, said "The Church must steadily and firmly heed that although the language of the people may change, the language of liturgy should not be altered.  Thus, the Mass must be said in the language in which it was said from the beginning". Latin in the Roman rite has been a great sign of unity throughout western Christendom and is a testament of our devotion to Mother Church in Rome. I'm aware some place the very widespread use of Latin as only beginning in the third or fourth century, but why would St. Peter, who was taught all lnaguages by the Holy Ghost, not have used the language of Rome while saying Mass there? It is probable both Latin and Greek were used for a while.

Even those who favor the Greek first in Rome theory admit part of it is based on conjecture. From the CE: "We have hardly any knowledge at all of what developments the Roman Rite went through during the third and fourth centuries. This is the mysterious time where conjecture may, and does, run riot. By the fifth century we come back to comparatively firm ground, after a radical change. At this time we have the fragment in Pseudo-Ambrose, "De sacramentis" (about 400. Cf. P.L., XVI, 443), and the letter of Pope Innocent I (401-17) to Decentius of Eugubium (P.L., XX, 553). In these documents we see that the Roman Liturgy is said in Latin and has already become in essence the rite we still use. A few indications of the end of the fourth century agree with this. A little later we come to the earliest Sacramentaries (Leonine, fifth or sixth century; Gelasian, sixth or seventh century) and from then the history of the Roman Mass is fairly clear. The fifth and sixth centuries therefore show us the other end of the chain. For the interval between the second and fifth centuries, during which the great change took place, although we know so little about Rome itself, we have valuable data from Africa. There is every reason to believe that in liturgical matters the Church of Africa followed Rome closely. We can supply much of what we wish to know about Rome from the African Fathers of the third century, Tertullian (d. c. 220), St. Cyprian (d. 258), the Acts of St. Perpetua and St. Felicitas (203), St. Augustine (d. 430) (see Cabrol, "Dictionnaire d' archéologie", I, 591-657). The question of the change of language from Greek to Latin is less important than if might seem. It came about naturally when Greek ceased to be the usual language of the Roman Christians. Pope Victor I (190-202), an African, seems to have been the first to use Latin at Rome, Novatian writes Latin. By the second half of the third century the usual liturgical language at Rome seems to have been Latin (Kattenbusch, "Symbolik", II, 331), though fragments of Greek remained for many centuries. Other writers think that Latin was not finally adopted till the end of the fourth century (Probst, "Die abendländ. Messe", 5; Rietschel, "Lehrbuch der Liturgik", I, 337). No doubt, for a time both languages were used. The question is discussed at length in C. P. Caspari, "Quellen zur Gesch. des Taufsymbols u. der Glaubensregel" (Christiania, 1879), III, 267 sq. The Creed was sometimes said in Greek, some psalms were sung in that language, the lessons on Holy Saturday were read in Greek and Latin as late as the eighth century (Ordo Rom., I, P.L., LXXVIII, 966-68, 955). There are still such fragments of Greek ("Kyrie eleison", "Agios O Theos") in the Roman Mass. But a change of language does not involve a change of rite. Novatian's Latin allusions to the Eucharistic prayer agree very well with those of Clement of Rome in Greek, and with the Greek forms in Apost. Const., VIII (Drews, op. cit., 107-22). The Africans, Tertullian, St. Cyprian, etc., who write Latin, describe a rite very closely related to that of Justin and the Apostolic Constitutions (Probst, op. cit., 183-206; 215-30)."

Quote from: Fr. Michael Mueller
Latin was the language used by St. Peter when he first said Mass at Rome. It was the language in which that Prince of the Apostles drew up the Liturgy which, together with the knowledge of the Gospel, he or his successors the Popes imparted to the different peoples of Italy, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, Hungary, and Poland.
From the time of the Apostles down, Latin has invariably been used at the altar through the western parts of Christendom, though their inhabitants very frequently did not understand the language. The Catholic Church, through an aversion to innovations, carefully continues to celebrate her Liturgy in that same tongue which apostolic men and saints have used for a similar purpose during more than eighteen centuries.
Unchangeable dogmas require an unchangeable language. The Catholic Church cannot change, because it is the Church of God, Who is unchangeable; consequently the language of the Church must also be unchangeable.
Mass is said in Latin because a universal Church requires a universal language. The Catholic Church is the same in every clime, in every nation, and consequently its language must be always and everywhere the same, to secure uniformity in her service.
Variety of languages is a punishment, a consequence of sin; it was inflicted by God that the human race might be dispersed over the face of the earth. The holy Church, the immaculate Spouse of Jesus Christ, has been established for the express purpose of destroying sin and uniting all mankind; consequently she must everywhere speak the same language.
It is a fact well known that the meaning of the words is changed in the course of time by everyday usage. Words which once had a good meaning are now used in a vulgar or ludicrous sense. The Church, enlightened by the Holy Ghost, has chosen a language which is not liable to such changes. The sermons and instructions, and in short everything that is addressed directly to the people, are all in the language of the country; even the prayers of the Mass are translated in almost every Catholic prayerbook, so that there can be no disadvantage to the Catholic worshipper in the fact that the Mass is celebrated in the Latin tongue; especially as the pastors of the Church are very careful to comply with the injunctions of the Council of Trent, to instruct their flocks on the nature of that great Sacrifice, and to explain to them in what manner they should accompany the officiating priest with prayers and devotions best adapted to every portion of the Mass.
In the second place, faithful Catholics know well that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the self-same sacrifice that Jesus Christ offered to His Father on the Cross, because both the Priest and the Victim are the same; their faith in the Real Presence is abundantly sufficient to enkindle devotion in their hearts, and to excite in their souls appropriate acts of adoration, thanksgiving and repentance, though they may not understand the prayers which the priest is uttering. For this reason it is that the faithful, pressed by different wants, go to the adorable mysteries of the Mass, never thinking of the language in which they are celebrated. Some, moved by the force of calamities, hasten thither to lay their sorrows at the feet of Jesus. Others go to ask for some grace and special mercy, knowing that the heavenly Father can refuse nothing to His Son. Many feel constrained to fly thither to proclaim their gratitude, and to pour forth the love of a thankful heart, knowing that there is nothing so worthy of being offered to God as the sacred Body and Blood of the eternal Victim. More press forward to give glory to God and to honor His saints, for in the celebration of these mysteries of love alone can we pay worthy homage to His adorable Majesty, while we bear witness to our reverence for those who served Him.
Lastly, men hasten to Mass on the wings of charity and compassion, for it is there that they can hope to obtain salvation for the living and rest for the dead. Thus to the thirsty pilgrims through the rocks of the desert do the fountains of water appear. Thus do the generation of those who seek justice received benediction from the Lord and mercy from God their Savior.
Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion daily, or at least weekly, to offer their lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING: "My dear Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with your most precious Blood and your sacrifice on Calvary, I hereby offer my whole life to the intention of your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with my life, I place at your disposal all Holy Masses, all my Holy Communions, all my good deeds, all my sacrifices, and the suffering of my entire life for the adoration and supplication of the Holy Trinity, for unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father and priests, for good priestly vocations, and for all souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept my life sacrifice and my offerings and give me your grace that I may persevere obediently until my death." Amen. https://www.avemariamaternostra.com/life-offering-promises.html It is recommended that you make this life offering as soon as you feel ready, and to renew it from time to time.

THE FIVE PROMISES OF OUR HEAVENLY MOTHER TO THOSE WHO OFFER THEIR LIVES TO HER

1. "Their names will be written in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary, inflamed by love.
2. Their life offering, together with the infinite merits of Jesus, can save many souls from damnation.  All souls who will live until the end of the world will benefit from their life offering.
3. None of their family members will go to hell, even if it seems otherwise, because they will receive, in the depths of their souls, the grace of sincere contrition before the soul departs from their bodies.
4. On the day they offer their lives, their loved ones suffering in Purgatory will be released.
5. I will be with them at the hour of their death.  They will not know Purgatory.  I will carry their souls straight to the presence of the Glorious Trinity, where they will live with me in a special place created by God and will rejoice forever."
 

Offline VeraeFidei

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Re: True liturgical history
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2018, 11:47:42 PM »
https://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass.html

Fr. Michael Mueller's the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. One of the best books ever written. Deals with history and much more. Explains St. Peter instituted Mass in Latin in Rome. A must read for every Catholic and traditionalist. Especially today. Explains multiplicity of language is a chastisement, as at Babel. Uniformity of language is a blessing, as at Pentecost by a miracle and so in the Church. Speaks of dogma being immutable and the Church rendering Her adoration to His Divine Majesty in the sacred Latin tongue preserves us from falling into error and confusion, and is a safeguard from trying to relativize unchangeable dogmatic truth. Prescient book written a century ago with prophetic insights for our time.
Given that you are so concerned with what the ancient Roman liturgical praxis was, I hope you wouldn't dare attend the vicious evil that is any Mass descended from the Roman Curia's liturgical books, which at the order of the innovator Pope Nicholas III supplanted the ancient usages of the Roman basilicas and parishes, and was more Gallican than Roman in origin.