Author Topic: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?  (Read 863 times)

Offline Daniel

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St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« on: April 22, 2018, 06:22:30 PM »
I was under the impression that St. Thomas says that the will is supposed to submit to the intellect?

edit - I've removed my other question, since I think the premise was erroneous
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:01:02 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Does St. Thomas really say that the intellect submits to the will?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 06:45:18 PM »
I was under the impression that St. Thomas says that the will is supposed to submit to the intellect?
See the 21st of the 24 Thomistic Theses:
Thesis XXI.

Intellectum sequitur, non praecedit, voluntas, quae necessario appetit id quod sibi praesentatur tamquam bonum ex omni parte explens appetitum, sed inter plura bona, quae iudicio mutabili appetenda proponuntur, libere eligit. Sequitur proinde electio iudicium practicum ultimum; at quod sit ultimum, voluntas efficit.

The will follows, does not precede, the intellect; it necessarily desires that which is offered to it as a good which entirely satisfies the appetite; it freely chooses among several good things that are proposed as desirable by the wavering judgment. Election, then, follows the last practical judgment; still, it is the will which determines it to be the last.

Commentary: Will is not prior but posterior to the intellect, in dignity, in origin, in acting. The posteriority in acting is chiefly intended here. Every act of the will is preceded by an act of the intellect; for the act of the will is a rational inclination, and while inclination follows a form, rational inclination follows the intellectually apprehended form. The intellect, in presenting to the will some apprehended good, moves it as to the specification of its act. If the presented good is the absolute or universal good, the will desires it of necessity. If it is good mixed with evil, relative or particular good, it is partially attractive and partially repulsive. The will may desire it, or may not. Once the intellect has settled on the practical excellency of some particular good, the will must accept such an object. Yet, it is the will, which freely committed itself to the determination of the intellect; it is the will, which freely sustained the intellect in its unilateral consideration; and it is the will, which freely wants the process not to be submitted to a further revision. [Summa Theologiae, Iª q. 82 et q. 83; Contra Gentiles, lib. 2 cap. 72 ff.; De veritate, q. 22 a. 5; De malo, q. 11]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 06:48:25 PM by Geremia »
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 06:54:03 PM »
Ok, thank you. That clarifies things.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 06:56:58 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: Does St. Thomas really say that the intellect submits to the will?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 06:57:39 PM »
But now I hear that St. Thomas says that the virtue of faith requires that the intellect submit to the will?
"Faith implies assent of the intellect to that which is believed." (II-II q. 1 a. 4 c.).
Also, what prevents a person from believing in stuff that isn't true?
cf. II-II q. 1 a. 3 ("Whether anything false can come under faith?") c.:
Quote
Nothing comes under any power, habit or act, except by means of the formal aspect of the object: thus color cannot be seen except by means of light, and a conclusion cannot be known save through the mean of demonstration. Now it has been stated (Article [1]) that the formal aspect of the object of faith is the First Truth; so that nothing can come under faith, save in so far as it stands under the First Truth, under which nothing false can stand, as neither can non-being stand under being, nor evil under goodness. It follows therefore that nothing false can come under faith.
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 07:07:36 PM »
Oh, so the intellect is what assents? I guess I was a little confused on the difference between assent and consent. For whatever reason I was thinking that assent and consent were both acts of the will, but I guess that's not the case.

And thanks for the citations. I'll read those articles more closely.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:10:11 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline Geremia

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 07:14:33 PM »
Also, the will is the subject of charity (not of faith), and "to love God is something greater than to know Him" (II-II q. 27 a. 4 ad 2). Still, one cannot love what one does not know, so the intellect definitely has greater dignity than the will.
(And the Beatific Vision—heaven, union with God, our greatest happiness—is of the intellect.)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:28:26 PM by Geremia »
 
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Offline Geremia

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 07:23:29 PM »
Oh, so the intellect is what assents? I guess I was a little confused on the difference between assent and consent.
Verbs pertaining to the intellect: to assent = to consent = assentior.
II-II q. 2 a. 1 ("Whether to believe is to think with assent?") c.
Quote
Accordingly, if "to think" [cogitare] be understood broadly according to the first sense, then "to think with assent" [assensione cogitare] does not express completely what is meant by "to believe": since, in this way, a man thinks with assent even when he considers what he knows by science [*Science is certain knowledge of a demonstrated conclusion through its demonstration.], or understands. If, on the other hand, "to think" be understood in the second way, then this expresses completely the nature of the act of believing. For among the acts belonging to the intellect, some have a firm assent without any such kind of thinking, as when a man considers the things that he knows by science, or understands, for this consideration is already formed. But some acts of the intellect have unformed thought devoid of a firm assent, whether they incline to neither side, as in one who "doubts"; or incline to one side rather than the other, but on account of some slight motive, as in one who "suspects"; or incline to one side yet with fear of the other, as in one who "opines." But this act "to believe," cleaves firmly to one side
Verbs pertaining to the will: to choose = to elect = eligere.
The intellect assentitur, and the will eligit.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 07:27:50 PM by Geremia »
 
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2018, 10:17:33 PM »
Thank you, Geremia, for bringing together these texts from St. Thomas.

Here are a couple more texts that shed additional light on how the will is involved in the assent of the intellect to truths of faith.

Quote
II-II q. 2 a.
Here is a little more from the same article you quoted.

1 ("Whether to believe is to think with assent?")


...
 Objection 3: Further, to believe is an act of the intellect, since its object is truth. But assent seems to be an act not of the intellect, but of the will, even as consent is, as stated above (FS, Question [15], Article [1], ad 3). Therefore to believe is not to think with assent.
...
Reply to Objection 3: The intellect of the believer is determined to one object, not by the reason, but by the will, wherefore assent is taken here for an act of the intellect as determined to one object by the will.

And elsewhere St. Thomas says:

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/QDdeVer14.htm
Quote from: St. Thomas Questiones Disputatae de Veritate Q14 A1
...
[before this he speaks of opinion and other uncertain assent to what may be true]

Sometimes, again, the possible intellect is so determined that it adheres to one member without reservation. This happens sometimes because of the intelligible object and sometimes because of the will. Furthermore, the intelligible object sometimes acts mediately, sometimes immediately. It acts immediately when the truth of the propositions is unmistakably clear immediately to the intellect from the intelligible objects themselves. This is the state of one who understands principles, which are known as soon as the terms are known, as the Philosopher says. Here, the very nature of the thing itself immediately determines the intellect to propositions of this sort. The intelligible object acts mediately, however, when the understanding, once it knows the definitions of the terms, is determined to one member of the contradictory proposition in virtue of first principles. This is the state of one who has science.

Sometimes, however, the understanding can be determined to one side of a contradictory proposition neither immediately through the definitions of the terms, as is the case with principles, nor yet in virtue of principles, as is the case with conclusions from a demonstration. And in this situation our understanding is determined by the will, which chooses to assent to one side definitely and precisely because of something which is enough to move the will, though not enough to move the understanding, namely, since it seems good or fitting to assent to this side. And this is the state of one who believes. This may happen when someone believes what another says because it seems fitting or useful to do so.

Thus, too, we are moved to believe what God says because we are promised eternal life as a reward if we believe. And this reward moves the will to assent to what is said, although the intellect is not moved by anything which it understands. Therefore, Augustine says: “Man can do other things unwillingly, but he can believe only if he wills it.”


...the assent is not caused by the thought, but by the will...


So the will is especially important when it comes to the act of faith.  The will doesn't cause the intellect to "believe" (to assent to) what is provable by human reason, but it does for truths of faith.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:18:06 PM by Non Nobis »
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 
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Offline Geremia

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2018, 04:24:22 PM »
The will doesn't cause the intellect to "believe" (to assent to) what is provable by human reason
In other words: The will doesn't need to urge the intellect to understand what it understands?
, but it does for truths of faith.
The will can certainly urge the intellect to deepen (or not)* its understanding of any truth (be it naturally knowable or only knowable from Revelation).

{*The will "freely wants the process* [to be or] not to be submitted to a further revision", as Fr. Lumbreras says.
**i.e., the process of the intellect presenting the good(s) to the will
The will doesn't "understand" truths of the faith before the intellect does. The will doesn't understand truths; that's not it's object. The will chooses among goods.}

Offline Non Nobis

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2018, 01:14:55 AM »
The will doesn't cause the intellect to "believe" (to assent to) what is provable by human reason

In other words: The will doesn't need to urge the intellect to understand what it understands?

For things that are understood by reason alone, the mere logic of the case causes reason to assent to truth (2+2=4; syllogism proving X). Yes the will urges the mind to think, but the assent comes naturally.

For things that are believed by faith, the assent requires the will.  The will does have the good as an object here. St. Thomas (as previously quoted) " we are moved to believe what God says because we are promised eternal life as a reward if we believe. And this reward moves the will to assent to what is said, although the intellect is not moved by anything which it understands"

I am not saying that the will understands first, but it causes the intellect to assent to to a belief because God teaches it. The intellect first understands the meaning of the belief, but the will assents and moves the intellect to assent. St. Thomas again: " the assent is not caused by the thought, but by the will".
[Matthew 8:26]  And Jesus saith to them: Why are you fearful, O ye of little faith? Then rising up he commanded the winds, and the sea, and there came a great calm.

[Job  38:1-5]  Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: [2] Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? [3] Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. [4] Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. [5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
 

Offline Daniel

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2018, 03:08:22 PM »
I'm looking at II-II 1 3, and I see St. Thomas keeps mentioning a "First Truth". What does this phrase "First Truth" mean exactly?

I'm also confused about this talk of the will causing the intellect to assent to matters of faith. Suppose e.g. I think I know that 2 + 2 is 4, but for some bizarre reason I also think I know that God revealed that 2 + 2 is 5. Obviously if God revealed it then it must be true (and what I think I know about arithmetic is false), but how am I to know whether God revealed it? There are at least two possibilities on how this could play out:
(1) God revealed it and my math is wrong, or
(2) God never revealed it and my math is right.

Now maybe I'm just be confused on what "faith" is, but I was under the impression that faith is the virtue that allows a person to know which things are revealed by God and which ones are not? Kind of like infused knowledge about knowledge. e.g. The man who has faith knows that God did not reveal that 2 + 2 = 5, while the man without faith doesn't know one way or the other and can only take guesses. He might choose to believe that God never revealed it (in which case he's right) or he might choose to believe that God did reveal it (in which case he's wrong)In both cases he's simply choosing to believe something (his will is compelling the intellect to assent), yet in neither case does he have the faith.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 07:36:39 PM by Daniel »
 

Offline james03

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2018, 12:50:54 PM »
I think by this very statement you have revealed your lack of Faith.  You are going to hell.

Ditch the scruples, dude, it must be tiring.

There is something called "implicit Faith", which is usually wrongly used by heretics to claim jews and moslems are saved.  Implicit Faith occurs in Catholics who believe in Jesus and His Church.  Implicit Faith is the implication that a Catholic in error would assent to the proper teaching if he was properly instructed by the Church.  Implicit Faith saves Catholics.

If you were baptized, you were given Supernatural Faith.
"But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God (Jn 3:18)."

"All sorrow leads to the foot of the Cross.  Weep for your sins."
 
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Offline Geremia

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2018, 06:46:35 PM »
This quote reminded me of this thread:
Quote
    The assent of faith is an act of virtue. It ought therefore to be prudent and consonant with reason. But prudence dictates that nothing be firmly believed in, unless evidence makes it credible. Therefore, the mysteries of faith which we are ordered to believe most firmly must be evidently credible.

    (Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., The Theological Virtues, vol. 1 [On Faith: A Commentary on St. Thomas' Theological Summa Ia IIae, qq. 62, 65, 68 and IIa IIae, qq.1-16] [Ex Fontibus Co., 2016], p. 104) (Latin original)
(quoted here)

Fr. G.-L.'s commentary would probably help answer your questions.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 06:51:08 PM by Geremia »
 
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Offline Geremia

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2018, 06:57:43 PM »
Now maybe I'm just be confused on what "faith" is, but I was under the impression that faith is the virtue that allows a person to know which things are revealed by God and which ones are not?
No. Faith is the virtue by which we believe what God has revealed (material motive) because by His authority He has revealed it (formal motive).

from Parente & Piolanti's definition (Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology p. 101-2):
Quote
faith is adhesion of the intellect, under the influence of grace, to a truth revealed by God, not on account of its intrinsic evidence but on account of the authority of Him who has revealed it.
(see the PDF for their full definition and explanation)

Here's what Vatican I's Dei Filius says about faith (DZ 1789ff.):
Quote
Chap. 3. Faith

1789  [ The definition of faith] .Since man is wholly dependent on God as his Creator and Lord, and since created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are bound by faith to give full obedience of intellect and will to God who reveals [can. 1]. But the Catholic Church professes that this faith, which "is the beginning of human salvation" [cf. n. 801], is a supernatural virtue by which we, with the aid and inspiration of the grace of God, believe that the things revealed by Him are true, not because the intrinsic truth of the revealed things has been perceived by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself who reveals them, who can neither deceive nor be deceived [can. 2]. For, "faith is," as the Apostle testifies, "the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not" [Heb. 11:1].

1790   [That faith is consonant with reason ].However, in order that the "obedience" of our faith should be "consonant with reason" [cf. Rom. 12:1], God has willed that to the internal aids of the Holy Spirit there should be joined external proofs of His revelation, namely: divine facts, especially miracles and prophecies which, because they clearly show forth the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are most certain signs of a divine revelation, and are suited to the intelligence of all [can. 3 and 4]. Wherefore, not only Moses and the prophets, but especially Christ the Lord Himself, produced many genuine miracles and prophecies; and we read concerning the apostles: "But they going forth preached everywhere: the Lord working withal and confirming the word with signs that followed" [Mark 16:20]. And again it is written: "And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place" [2 Pet. 1:19].

1791  [ Tha t faith in itself is a gift of God].Moreover, although the assent of faith is by no means a blind movement of the intellect, nevertheless, no one can "assent to the preaching of the Gospel," as he must to attain salvation, "without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who gives to all a sweetness in consenting to and believing in truth" (Council of Orange, see n.178 ff.). Wherefore, "faith" itself in itself, even if it "worketh not by charity" [cf. Gal. 5:6], is a gift of God, and its act is a work pertaining to salvation, by which man offers a free obedience to God Himself by agreeing to, and cooperating with His grace, which he could resist [cf. n.797 f: can. 5].

1792 [The object of faith] .Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.

1793 [The necessity of embracing faith and retaining it] .But, since "without faith it is impossible to please God" [ Heb. 11:6] and to attain to the fellowship of His sons, hence, no one is justified without it; nor will anyone attain eternal life except "he shall persevere unto the end on it" [ Matt. 10:22;24:13]. Moreover, in order that we may satisfactorily perform the duty of embracing the true faith and of continuously persevering in it, God, through His only-begotten Son, has instituted the Church, and provided it with clear signs of His institution, so that it can be recognized by all as the guardian and teacher of the revealed word.

1794  [ The divine external aid for the fulfillment of the duty of Faith ] .For, to the Catholic Church alone belong all those many and marvelous things which have been divinely arranged for the evident credibility of the Christian faith. But, even the Church itself by itself, because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility, and an incontestable witness of its own divine mission.

 [The divine internal aid to the same].By this it happens that the Church as "a standard set up unto the nations" [Isa. 11:12], both invites to itself those who have not yet believed, and makes its sons more certain that the faith, which they profess, rests on a very firm foundation. Indeed, an efficacious aid to this testimony has come from supernatural virtue. For, the most benign God both excites the erring by His grace and aids them so that they can "come to a knowledge of the truth" [ 1 Tim. 2:4], and also confirms in His grace those whom "He has called out of darkness into his marvelous light" [1 Pet. 2:9 ], so that they may persevere in this same light, not deserting if He be not deserted [see n. 804 ]. Wherefore, not at all equal is the condition of those, who, through the heavenly gift of faith, have adhered to the Catholic truth, and of those, who, led by human opinions, follow a false religion; for, those who have accepted the faith under the teaching power of the Church can never have a just cause of changing or doubting that faith [can. 6]. Since this is so, "giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light" [Col. 1:12 ], let us not neglect such salvation, but "looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith" [ Heb. 12:2], "let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering" [ Heb. 10:23].

Chap. 4. Faith and reason

 

1795   [ The twofold order of knowledge] .By enduring agreement the Catholic Church has held and holds that there is a twofold order of knowledge, distinct not only in principle but also in object: (1) in principle, indeed, because we know in one way by natural reason, in another by divine faith; (2) in object, however, because, in addition to things to which natural reason can attain, mysteries hidden in God are proposed to us for belief which, had they not been divinely revealed, could not become known [can. 1]. Wherefore, the Apostle, who testifies that God was known to the Gentiles "by the things that are made" [Rom. 1:20], nevertheless, when discoursing about grace and truth which "was made through Jesus Christ" [cf.John 1:17] proclaims: "We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, a wisdom which is hidden, which God ordained before the world, unto our glory, which none of the princes of this world know. . . . But to us God hath revealed them by His Spirit For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea the deep things of God" [ 1 Cor. 2:7,8,10]. And the Only-begotten Himself "confesses to the Father, because He hath hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hath revealed them to little ones" [cf.Matt. 11:25 ]

1796  [The role of reason in teaching supernatur al truth ] .And, indeed, reason illustrated by faith, when it zealously, piously, and soberly seeks, attains with the help of God some understanding of the mysteries, and that a most profitable one, not only from the analogy of those things which it knows naturally, but also from the connection of the mysteries among themselves and with the last end of man; nevertheless, it is never capable of perceiving those mysteries in the way it does the truths which constitute its own proper object. For, divine mysteries by their nature exceed the created intellect so much that, even when handed down by revelation and accepted by faith, they nevertheless remain covered by the veil of faith itself, and wrapped in a certain mist, as it were, as long as in this mortal life, "we are absent from the Lord: for we walk by faith and not by sight" [ 2 Cor. 5:6 f.],

1797  [The impossibility of opposition between faith and reason ] .But, although faith is above reason, nevertheless, between faith and reason no true dissension can ever exist, since the same God, who reveals mysteries and infuses faith, has bestowed on the human soul the light of reason; moreover, God cannot deny Himself, nor ever contradict truth with truth. But, a vain appearance of such a contradiction arises chiefly from this, that either the dogmas of faith have not been understood and interpreted according to the mind of the Church, or deceitful opinions are considered as the determinations of reason. Therefore, "every assertion contrary to the truth illuminated by faith, we define to be altogether false" [Lateran Council V, see n. 738 ].

1798 Further, the Church which, together with the apostolic duty of teaching, has received the command to guard the deposit of faith, has also, from divine Providence, the right and duty of proscribing "knowledge falsely so called" [1 Tim. 6:20 ], "lest anyone be cheated by philosophy and vain deceit" [cf.Col. 2:8; can. 2]. Wherefore, all faithful Christians not only are forbidden to defend opinions of this sort, which are known to be contrary to the teaching of faith, especially if they have been condemned by the Church, as the legitimate conclusions of science, but they shall be altogether bound to hold them rather as errors, which present a false appearance of truth.

1799  [ The mutual assistance of faith and reason, and the just freedom of science].And, not only can faith and reason never be at variance with one another, but they also bring mutual help to each other, since right reasoning demonstrates the basis of faith and, illumined by its light, perfects the knowledge of divine things, while faith frees and protects reason from errors and provides it with manifold knowledge. Wherefore, the Church is so far from objecting to the culture of the human arts and sciences, that it aids and promotes this cultivation in many ways. For, it is not ignorant of, nor does it despise the advantages flowing therefrom into human life; nay, it confesses that, just as they have come forth from "God, the Lord of knowledge" [ 1 Samuel 2:3], so, if rightly handled, they lead to God by the aid of His grace. And it (the Church) does not forbid disciplines of this kind, each in its own sphere, to use its own principles and its own method; but, although recognizing this freedom, it continually warns them not to fall into errors by opposition to divine doctrine, nor, having transgressed their own proper limits, to be busy with and to disturb those matters which belong to faith.

1800 [The true progress of knowledge, both natural and revealed] .For, the doctrine of faith which God revealed has not been handed down as a philosophic invention to the human mind to be perfected, but has been entrusted as a divine deposit to the Spouse of Christ, to be faithfully guarded and infallibly interpreted. Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding [can. 3]. "Therefore . . . let the understanding, the knowledge, and wisdom of individuals as of all, of one man as of the whole Church, grow and progress strongly with the passage of the ages and the centuries; but let it be solely in its own genus, namely in the same dogma, with the same sense and the same understanding.'' *
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 07:06:45 PM by Geremia »
 
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Offline Daniel

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Re: St. Thomas says that the will submits to the intellect?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2018, 09:43:28 PM »
Ok, so let me see if I have this right. "Illumination" is the supernatural grace / infused knowledge by which we attain the power of differentiating between the things which God revealed and the things which God did not reveal, while "faith" (in the narrow sense) is the purely human act or habit of believing the things which (through illumination) we know that God has revealed?

So the illumined man who believes the Church's dogmas is said to have faith, since he chooses to believe in these things which to him are evident (through illumination)?
But the non-illumined man who believes these same dogmas is said not to have faith, since to him these things are not evident yet he foolishly believes in them anyway?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 07:49:11 AM by Daniel »