Author Topic: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.  (Read 1068 times)

Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2018, 09:24:27 AM »
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I worry that there's not enough time to pay back God for the sins we have done against Him.

No mere man could ever “pay back” what is owed for his sins. That’s why Christ died for us. What is this? Pelagianism?

May God forgive me for my consistent sins of the flesh and any blasphemous and carnal desire, as well as forgive me whenever I act prideful, against the desire of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, to be a Temple of the Holy Spirit.
 

Offline lauermar

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 08:37:08 PM »
I don't know where some of you are getting the idea that offering up one's sufferings is not efficacious in redemptive value of oneself and the sins of others. To say it is not, is Protestantism. Protestants generally do not think that this is necessary because faith alone justifies man. You can go on sinning boldly because you can't pay God back, and Jesus died for all our sins anyway. Right?

Wrong. The exact opposite is true in Catholic teaching. The redemptive value of human suffering goes beyond restitution. Consider the martyrs of the world. Also, reflect on the story of Nineveh.

"God has given us free will to choose to follow Him or not. We’ve abused it many times because of our own sinful nature. And yet He can not only forgive our sins through the Sacrament of Penance (Confession) but also, if we stay close to Him in prayers of offerings, He can take our troubles of any size and use them to make amends for our sins or those of others. (Think of this like paying to fix a window you or someone else broke!) "  As Bishop Fulton Sheen once wrote “Pain, agony, disappointments, injustices-all these can be poured into a heavenly treasury from which the anemic, sinful, confused, ignorant souls may draw unto the healing of their wings.” Think of your sufferings and prayer offerings such as these as contributions into an “Atonement Bank.” It’s not in danger of needing a bailout, and it can give you quite a high rate of return! Your “deposits” can help you, your loved ones or people you don’t even know attain salvation and Eternal Life! "  read link below:


https://www.ourcatholicprayers.com/offering-prayers.html
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:42:10 PM by lauermar »
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 09:33:45 PM »
I don't know where some of you are getting the idea that offering up one's sufferings is not efficacious in redemptive value of oneself and the sins of others. To say it is not, is Protestantism. Protestants generally do not think that this is necessary because faith alone justifies man. You can go on sinning boldly because you can't pay God back, and Jesus died for all our sins anyway. Right?

Wrong. The exact opposite is true in Catholic teaching. The redemptive value of human suffering goes beyond restitution. Consider the martyrs of the world. Also, reflect on the story of Nineveh.

Our suffering is efficacious, but by itself not sufficient to pay back our offenses against an infinitely good God.  We need the suffering of Christ (the God-man) as our Redeemer, as He alone is infinitely good.

I think Christ blesses us by letting us (and usually asking us to) join in the complete sufficiency of HIS Redemptive suffering:

Quote from: Romans 8
[16]For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. [17] And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. [18]
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 09:40:38 PM by Non Nobis »
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Offline Non Nobis

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 10:39:13 PM »
I don't know where some of you are getting the idea that offering up one's sufferings is not efficacious in redemptive value of oneself and the sins of others. To say it is not, is Protestantism. Protestants generally do not think that this is necessary because faith alone justifies man. You can go on sinning boldly because you can't pay God back, and Jesus died for all our sins anyway. Right?

Wrong. The exact opposite is true in Catholic teaching. The redemptive value of human suffering goes beyond restitution. Consider the martyrs of the world. Also, reflect on the story of Nineveh.

Our suffering is efficacious, but by itself not sufficient to pay back our offenses against an infinitely good God.  We need the suffering of Christ (the God-man) as our Redeemer, as He alone is infinitely good.

I think Christ blesses us by letting us (and usually asking us to) join in the complete sufficiency of HIS Redemptive suffering:

Quote from: Romans 8
[16]For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit, that we are the sons of God. [17] And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him. [18]

Continued discussion on other thread:  https://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=19388.msg442314#msg442314
Children say that people are hung sometimes for speaking the truth.

If I am not in the state of grace, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me

- Saint Joan of Arc
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 11:07:30 PM »
So then, many of you see no efficacy in using indulgences to shorten one's time in purgatory, to atone for the corporal effects of sin that remain after confession.

Some of you throw out terms like Pelagiansim, which has no application here. Pelagianism denies the existence of original sin, which is the opposite of what I was talking about.

And then some of you do not feel that you have to remain in purgatory until you have paid the last penny, or you don't mind being separated from God so much.

Matthew 5:26  25Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way to court. Otherwise he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Colossians 1:
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23b And of which 1, Paul, became a minister. 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, striving with all the energy which he mightily inspires within me.


Here's St. Thomas' commentary on Colossians 1:

Quote
61. – And along with the above there is the fruit that in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. At first glance these words can be misunderstood to mean that the passion of Christ was not sufficient for our redemption, and that the sufferings of the saints were added to complete it. But this is heretical, because the blood of Christ is sufficient to redeem many worlds: “He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 Jn 2:2). Rather, we should understand that Christ and the Church are one mystical person, whose head is Christ, and whose body is all the just, for every just person is a member of this head: “individually members” (1 Cor. 12:27). Now God in his predestination has arranged how much merit will exist throughout the entire Church, both in the head and in the members, just as he has predestined the number of the elect. And among these merits, the sufferings of the holy martyrs occupy a prominent place. For while the merits of Christ, the head, are infinite, each saint displays some merits in a limited degree. This is why he says, I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions, that is, what is lacking in the afflictions of the whole Church, of which Christ is the head. I complete, that is, I add my own amount; and I do this in my flesh, that is, it is I myself who am suffering. Or, we could say that Paul was completing the sufferings that were lacking in his own flesh. for what was lacking was that, just as Christ had suffered in his own body, so he should also suffer in Paul, his member, and in similar ways in others. And Paul does this for the sake of his body, which is the Church that was to be redeemed by Christ: “That he might present the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle” (Eph 5:27). In the same way all the saints suffer for the Church, which receives strength from their example. The Gloss says that “afflictions are still lacking, because the treasure house of the Church’s merits is not full, and it will not be full until the end of the world.”
https://dhspriory.org/thomas/english/SSColossians.htm#16

FWIW, Scott Hahn has a presentation on suffering and he covers this verse. (cue everyone's eyes rolling at the mention of his name): He did so exactly in line with what St. Thomas said in his commentary.
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Offline Miriam_M

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Re: Testimony of a soul who went to hell.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 11:58:01 PM »
FWIW, Scott Hahn has a presentation on suffering and he covers this verse. (cue everyone's eyes rolling at the mention of his name): He did so exactly in line with what St. Thomas said in his commentary.

Yes, well even a broken clock is right twice a day, Gardener.  Those are too long odds to recommend him in general because he's still in love with Protestantism

 ;)

Getting back to the topic at hand, it's hard for me to accept (necessarily) this "testimony," given how difficult it would be to verify that this is a true communication .  I think, however, the value of it, even as a fictional example, is that it illustrates that merely resisting graces one's whole life can land one in Hell.  We tend to envision Hell as a place for egregious criminals and unrepentant sinners who mock & defy the Commandments and live solely for self-promotion and pleasure.  IOW, for sins of grave commission, when sins and habits of omission can also be a grave and final repudiation of God.  This has to do with God as ultimate Justice, requiring an accounting "balance" of the graces received vs. the graces utilized.