Author Topic: Our lady dancing liturgically  (Read 2560 times)

Offline jhfromsf68

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Our lady dancing liturgically
« on: January 09, 2018, 12:07:20 AM »
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!
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Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 09:28:05 AM »
1. The idea that an 16th century painting of the Virgin Mary encourages liturgical dancing, because her knee is bent, is absolutely ridiculous.

2. The Church Fathers commenting on dance in the Old Testament - Saint Cyprian comes to mind - make it clear the dance that people like the Prophet David performed were not at all energetic or licentious, nor were they used liturgically.

Even then, looking to the Old Testament disciplines of the law, in order to justify specific deeds, especially outside the context of Tradition is fatalistic. By that logic, we are all going to be damned to hell because we don't circumcise and we eat pork. It also means we are allowed to stone adulterers and we should prophesize naked.

In the Old Testament, instruments were used; but the Church Fathers clearly make the point that the New Testament Church using instruments is absolutely forbidden, because the disciplines of the Old Law are obsolete, and the singing voice to God is more pure and beautiful than any artificial instrument could produce; the inferior music was preparation for the purer music by the Body of Christ.

The same is true for even "dancing", even though contemporary dancing was not at all like Judaic dancing, and even though such dancing was explicitly forbidden in Judaic worship. Such energetic movements in liturgical prayer ought to be forbidden. Such dancing does not produce an authentic relationship with God, but is an act for the purpose of creating physical and emotional sensations artificially.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 06:36:43 PM by Livenotonevil »
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Offline Carleendiane

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 01:32:57 PM »
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

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Offline Lynne

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 02:50:06 PM »
By the way, it's not a painting but a supernatural image imposed on an article of clothing.  :)
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Offline red solo cup

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 03:27:56 PM »
"It's so lonely 'round the fields of Athenry"
 

Offline jhfromsf68

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 03:34:37 PM »
Thanks for your responses.

I thought maybe Our Lady's bent knee in the Our Lady of Guadalupe image representing religious dancing was common knowledge among Catholics. I can see by the responses so far that's not true.
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 04:15:51 PM »
Hi forum

I recently attended an Diocesan Latin mass. During the sermon the priest mentioned Our Lady of Guadalupe since her feast day was close. He talked a little bit about the history of the apparition and the indigenous people in Mexico at the time. He then starting talking about the image itself and mentioned that Our Lady's knee is bent in the image which represents liturgical dancing. He went on to say the indigenous people danced as part of their religious rituals and our lady was showing them something that they could relate to. He also mentioned the liturgical dancing of the old testament to justify this practice.

This all sounds a little iffy to me. But I could be wrong. Has anyone here heard about liturgical dancing in connection to Our lady of Guadalupe?   Thanks!

This is a very stupid rationale.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 09:38:23 PM »
A lot of images of Our Lady have her knee out like that.

Could be a lot of reasons. One reason that could be of significance is in reference to her bruised heel from crushing the head of the serpent -- that has more theological significance, and is seen in other, non-Mexican images. I fail to believe that she is communicating an Aztec dance to French children, or Portuguese peasant children, or Carmelite saints... etc.

Examples:




 

Offline Livenotonevil

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 09:44:47 PM »
Or Greeks



Or Russians

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Offline drummerboy

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 10:03:06 PM »
 

Offline drummerboy

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 10:08:18 PM »

From 10:00 minutes on.  Enjoy...or not :o
 

Offline Gardener

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 10:20:02 PM »
Or Greeks

Or Russians

Snipped pics for quoting purposes.

Since icons typically have very purposeful symbolism, do you happen to know or can you find out why her knee is out like that in the icons?
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 01:17:40 AM »
Wie dein Sonntag, so dein Sterbetag.

I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side.  ~Treebeard, LOTR

Jesus son of David, have mercy on me.
 
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Offline Obrien

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 02:30:16 AM »
Something stands out in my mind regarding the bend in Our Lady's knee. It shows her complete humility to God and sets an example to us that "every knee shall bend".

 
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Offline dymphna17

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Re: Our lady dancing liturgically
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2018, 05:54:27 AM »
Dear Lord, it's no wonder non-Catholics think we are a bunch of weirdos.  Uggghhhh!  Liturgical dance.  There's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.   :rolleyes:

I agree with Obrien on this one.
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