Author Topic: Traditional Catholics and secular culture  (Read 19031 times)

Offline Pon de Replay

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #90 on: January 02, 2018, 07:49:00 PM »
The results of Islam are absolutely shit.

Backward men.  Lots of homosexuality.  Oppressed women.  Rape.  Profound ignorance and plenty of inbreeding and societies ruled by fear and threats.

No argument here.  I am just saying that if "results matter," then Mohammed was pretty successful in devising a religion, however perverse, that would eventually win over billions.  What constitutes a good result, I suppose, is somewhat subjective.  From the perspective of a seventh-century macho psychotic Arabian visionary warlord, Islam has had pretty good results.

I don't mind if traditional Catholicism is supposed to be a remnant religion.  I am just saying that in terms of results you nearly have to whittle it down to yourself and your family and the partisans who think just like you to claim good results.  Traditional Catholicism itself is fairly splintered, and you share it (much to your dislike, I'm sure) with a good many rigorist singletons.  Like I said earlier, a truly impressive result would be peeling off Novus Ordo adherents at a remarkable rate.  Francis probably doesn't mind the fact that between you and him and the "Ugandan nig-nogs" there is not much unity.  He would surely prefer widespread confusion to a healthy portion of Catholics united against him in the name of tradition.  But there he is on the cover of Rolling Stone, and drawing adoring crowds in Latin America.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 07:51:54 PM by Pon de Replay »
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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #91 on: January 02, 2018, 08:12:32 PM »
That's why I look at results.  What works, on average, and what does not work.  If the rigorists who tell their children they are only one mortal sin away from Hell are producing solid, mentally stable offspring 30-40 years later then imitate that. 

Actually Greg after living in many places I can assure you the best kids are the ones told 1 mortal sin will send you to Hell, but they are also told how much Our Lord loves them and has compassion on sinners.

But again the main emphasis is love and enjoying each other's company and having a father who is good at guiding the family to family time where everyone loves to spend time with each other. I play Calico critters with my daughters dressing up rabbits and elephants and legos and checkers with my son, not to mention tickling them daily with stories of my youth fishing and getting bit by various animals which always makes them laugh.

I don't think they ponder the mortal sin, but just like my love of my father I knew that offending him was worse than anything in the world because he cared about me. That's how children best see God is through us.

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Once you accept that the main ship has sunk and you are in the lifeboat boat rowing your own family towards the horizon then the best thing to do is ignore everyone else's mindless ramblings and row the way you want to row at the speed you want to row.  Ignore the priests and pundits and Cassandras.  They haven't got a  clue.  Behind closed doors their lives are probably more (screwed) up than yours.

I agree with this.

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So just keep rowing, be friendly to the people and priests calmly rowing in your direction and keep your chin up.  Best case you make it to safety.  Financially support the handful of priests you see eye to eye with.  My goal is simply to help my children make good marriage choices and then let them row in whatever direction their see fit.

I agree with this also but I think, and maybe you won't agree but I have suspicion you do otherwise you wouldn't post here so frequently, is that we would still want to be a lighthouse for their marriage and give our sons and daughters in law good advise we would give our children and truly treat them as sons and daughters so they know they can rely on us while not directly interfering in their marriage, but only give advice we think could be helpful about the pitfalls of dealing with the public (mainly lying and being deceived wink wink).

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The thing that will MOST influence your children and their moral choices is whether they like you.  My Dad has the advantage that I actually like and admire him.  So 90% of what he does I copy.  If I thought my Father was a miserable Jansenistic tosser, with no sense of humor or fun, I'd just ignore the old fart.

I agree with this too.

I find that is hard to believe that gods love and mercy are real if we are at the same time constantly on the edge of damnation because one mortal sin can send you to hell for all eternity plus the reality of the fewness of the saved.  It doesn't seem like a path to heaven more like a tightrope walk over a canyon with a river filled with pirhanas.

Even if you're not in mortal sin right now there's the worry that you will do something horrible and that moment of weakness will be the moment God chooses to end your life.  He could end it immediately after first communion at 7 years old, or right after a fruitful SSPX retreat but what if He allpws a moment of weakness shortly before death what if I am committing mortal sins and not even realizing it what if I do something horrible I had no idea I was capable of... I can't stop worrying about this stuff.  I don't know how people can go about their lives not on the edge of a panic attack because the threat ofhell  is ever looming over our heads.  It's Christmas but the worry about mortal sin and helland damnation never take a Christmas break.  the uncertainty of it all is killing me

The path to holiness,true holiness, is near impossible and we are called to be perfect, which is impossible given our fallen nature.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 08:16:14 PM by Chestertonian »
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Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #92 on: January 02, 2018, 08:18:15 PM »
That's why I look at results.  What works, on average, and what does not work.  If the rigorists who tell their children they are only one mortal sin away from Hell are producing solid, mentally stable offspring 30-40 years later then imitate that. 

Actually Greg after living in many places I can assure you the best kids are the ones told 1 mortal sin will send you to Hell, but they are also told how much Our Lord loves them and has compassion on sinners.

But again the main emphasis is love and enjoying each other's company and having a father who is good at guiding the family to family time where everyone loves to spend time with each other. I play Calico critters with my daughters dressing up rabbits and elephants and legos and checkers with my son, not to mention tickling them daily with stories of my youth fishing and getting bit by various animals which always makes them laugh.

I don't think they ponder the mortal sin, but just like my love of my father I knew that offending him was worse than anything in the world because he cared about me. That's how children best see God is through us.

Quote
Once you accept that the main ship has sunk and you are in the lifeboat boat rowing your own family towards the horizon then the best thing to do is ignore everyone else's mindless ramblings and row the way you want to row at the speed you want to row.  Ignore the priests and pundits and Cassandras.  They haven't got a  clue.  Behind closed doors their lives are probably more (screwed) up than yours.

I agree with this.

Quote
So just keep rowing, be friendly to the people and priests calmly rowing in your direction and keep your chin up.  Best case you make it to safety.  Financially support the handful of priests you see eye to eye with.  My goal is simply to help my children make good marriage choices and then let them row in whatever direction their see fit.

I agree with this also but I think, and maybe you won't agree but I have suspicion you do otherwise you wouldn't post here so frequently, is that we would still want to be a lighthouse for their marriage and give our sons and daughters in law good advise we would give our children and truly treat them as sons and daughters so they know they can rely on us while not directly interfering in their marriage, but only give advice we think could be helpful about the pitfalls of dealing with the public (mainly lying and being deceived wink wink).

Quote
The thing that will MOST influence your children and their moral choices is whether they like you.  My Dad has the advantage that I actually like and admire him.  So 90% of what he does I copy.  If I thought my Father was a miserable Jansenistic tosser, with no sense of humor or fun, I'd just ignore the old fart.

I agree with this too.

I find that is hard to believe that gods love and mercy are real if we are at the same time constantly on the edge of damnation because one mortal sin can send you to hell for all eternity plus the reality of the fewness of the saved.  It doesn't seem like a path to heaven more like a tightrope walk over a canyon with a river filled with pirhanas.

Even if you're not in mortal sin right now there's the worry that you will do something horrible and that moment of weakness will be the moment God chooses to end your life.  He could end it immediately after first communion at 7 years old, or right after a fruitful SSPX retreat but what if He allpws a moment of weakness shortly before death what if I am committing mortal sins and not even realizing it what if I do something horrible I had no idea I was capable of...

The path to holiness,true holiness, is near impossible and we are called to be perfect, which is impossible given our fallen nature.

No you are wrong.  Our Lord says "For my burden is easy and my yoke is light".  He has assigned one of His Angels to watch over you and we your friends on this forum are praying for you, the Church is praying for you on earth and in Heaven.  God is with us, and He wants to save us, and He will if we can go to Him in our misery and plead for Mercy with a broken and contrite heart.   
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Offline bigbadtrad

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2018, 08:21:40 PM »
I have never actually seen an image of Our Lady nude even in Rome, I am sorry if I have given that impression.  However, I still feel reluctant to believe based only on what other people have said and not read for my self that Christians forfeit their salvation if they look at an image of St. Agatha's martyrdom, or at nude bodies falling into hell and being tortured.     I am open to changing my mind on this topic and conforming to your opinion, if you could give me your sources that deal with this topic I would be grateful.

I can't go any further into this discussion as I run a business and the rest of the week will be horrible for me. My point is roughly the same as yours which is that context matters and if the virgin martyr of St. Agatha torture should be shown at all. If so why were there no nude depictions of her at all until the Renaissance? I find in incredulous that a holy virgin would desire this considering her own life of sobriety. They tortured her in a way to humiliate her, and so to continue the humiliation we show it for the world? Makes no sense. Imagine for a moment she's tortured, breasts ripped off, and then when she is healing we show her images of her torture in which the whole world will see her torture. Again, I have a sneaking suspicion she would want that private as it undermines her purity.

To sum this up nicely I believe Savonarola did more good for Florence in both penance and repentance of sin than the art he burned and destroyed and considering the town went from pagan to fervent. I have more in common with him than his opponent Alexander VI, and with one of his defenders St. Filippo Neri. After his reputation was destroyed and body killed I find it funny how Florence returned to the cesspool of rot it was before. I was there a few years ago for 1 day and just wanted another Savonarola to restore it.
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Offline Chestertonian

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2018, 08:23:23 PM »
plus just today I listened to music involving percussion, my son went to Russian damce lessons right after public school, I allowed my wife to wear makeup and pants, then we watched Strong Bad Emails which involves a shirtless Mexican wrestler.. so nudity. that's at least 43 mortal sins depending on who you talk to
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Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2018, 08:41:38 PM »
I have never actually seen an image of Our Lady nude even in Rome, I am sorry if I have given that impression.  However, I still feel reluctant to believe based only on what other people have said and not read for my self that Christians forfeit their salvation if they look at an image of St. Agatha's martyrdom, or at nude bodies falling into hell and being tortured.     I am open to changing my mind on this topic and conforming to your opinion, if you could give me your sources that deal with this topic I would be grateful.

I can't go any further into this discussion as I run a business and the rest of the week will be horrible for me. My point is roughly the same as yours which is that context matters and if the virgin martyr of St. Agatha torture should be shown at all. If so why were there no nude depictions of her at all until the Renaissance? I find in incredulous that a holy virgin would desire this considering her own life of sobriety. They tortured her in a way to humiliate her, and so to continue the humiliation we show it for the world? Makes no sense. Imagine for a moment she's tortured, breasts ripped off, and then when she is healing we show her images of her torture in which the whole world will see her torture. Again, I have a sneaking suspicion she would want that private as it undermines her purity.

To sum this up nicely I believe Savonarola did more good for Florence in both penance and repentance of sin than the art he burned and destroyed and considering the town went from pagan to fervent. I have more in common with him than his opponent Alexander VI, and with one of his defenders St. Filippo Neri. After his reputation was destroyed and body killed I find it funny how Florence returned to the cesspool of rot it was before. I was there a few years ago for 1 day and just wanted another Savonarola to restore it.


It does make sense because we are sharing in the glory of her martyrdom by preserving and sharing it for future Christians to have an example to imitate and so that they might know of her story, and the fact that her breasts where ripped off are part of the story, it highlights the degree which we must be willing to suffer for Christ. That is how I see it, and I will hold to my opinion for now, I  respect your opinion has come from a formation on the topic perhaps beyond my own.


Thank you for your time my friend.   :toth:
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Offline Quaremerepulisti

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2018, 09:05:21 PM »
But scriptural literalism is not necessarily the same thing as rigorism.  The Early Church Fathers took many passages figuratively; one pretty much has to in a religion whose founder taught in parables.  And yet those Fathers were rigorist.  So your beef is with practice, not doctrine.  And if your criteria is that "results matter," then your work is cut out for you.  One of the most "phucked up" religions in the world, as you see it, is nevertheless the second most populous religion in the world.  If traditional Catholicism is your product, then you're only successfully selling to less than one percent of the world's population (and some of the incoming class are rigorists themselves, persuaded by something other than your own claim that traditional Catholicism is a recipe for making one's life excellent: "dancing, drinking hard, and sinning").  The Early Church Fathers, on the other hand, evangelized a continent.

I'm fascinated by this thread.  It's airing some dirty laundry better than I could ever make it evident.

Just curious PDR, why did you think it ridiculous that I make the demand of epistemological consistency from traditionalists yet here you are making the exact same demand yourself?  Or is this just in itself yet another example of inconsistency one has to learn to live with?

(And pretty much for everyone): by what right do you condemn me for holding to a changing/relative truth when you yourself hold to a changing/relative morality?  You're all quick to condemn me if I go against the Fathers on a matter of doctrine.  But then they didn't really "mean it" when it came to morality.  Now that's all historically conditioned, relative, etc.

And as for "results matter": they do except for when they do not.  If, in a given region and time, the Church flourishes, this is proof of her Divine mission and founding.  But if it doesn't, that just proves how evil people are, or that God is letting the evil happen only for the eventual triumph: the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church and all that.  Look, the externals of the Church, were by every measure prior to Vatican II, at least in the U.S., wonderful.  Protestants were converting by the droves.  Vocations were coming out of the woodwork.  Popes at least from Leo XIII onwards saw the enormous potential for Catholicism in the U.S.  But, in the end, it was all a facade.  It would not have collapsed like a house of cards or folded like a cheap suit the way it did if this were not the case.

Jerome was honestly a bit of a jackass when he posted here, and some of the things he said were false and ridiculous, especially on his site.  Yet nevertheless some of the things he said were true.  Why even bother about Tradition in the first place if you're going to watch movies with nudity?

 

Offline John Lamb

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #97 on: January 02, 2018, 09:53:39 PM »
Important thread with some interesting replies, but I think the most important reply so far might be this one by obscurus:

What an interesting topic!

I was just transcribing a personal letter by Carol Jackson where she touches on the question of rigorism in association with The Grail Movement. In the mid to late 40s, she wrote a letter describing the effects of this rigorism which relied more on human efforts than the grace of God. She made a curious statement that usually this type of rigorism ended up in mediocrity. I'll try to finish transcribing it and post it here.

Quote
The Grail is, I think, "Integrist", they have set up a perfect, little Christian community, but isolated -- especially psychologically.... The two errors in the apostolate are to accommodate yourself too much to the world (at the expense of Christianity), or to be Christian in your culture, mores etc. (not holy necessarily), at the price of separating yourself. Anne, having tasted one error, may be surging into the opposite one by reaction.

....There is another thing, that so far it seems as though all the splendor of the Grail ends in mediocrity. This is as it would be expected from a movement which depends too much on humans rather than grace.

This links with another important point made by bigbadtrad:

In conclusion I had this same conversation with my wife but in a different way. She asked how we make our kids into saints if things are so corrupt and the lives of the fathers seem so abstract. I mentioned the analogy of Bishop Sheen’s “modern hairshirts” where he showed in times past we imposed penances on ourselves in a Catholic ethos to help conform to God’s law against internal dangers. In today’s time our neighbor is our hairshirt as it’s an attack from without that constantly bombards us with attacks stronger than impurity but against our faith.

That maybe our way back to the ancients is not in linear form, but in the spirit of joy, happiness, spending more time as a family, playing games that are wholesome, restore chaperones over dating, and to make life the most fun it can be so they see the love of God through the family. Maybe the discipline imposed on us is to be as joyful as we can in a fallen world and not to let melancholy and despair take over us.

I’ve seen Catholicism practiced in 12 countries from Eastern, Novus Ordo, and Traditional perspectives. The only thing I’ve seen as a thread that binds them when I see the children prospering and growing in the faith is love, patience, compassion, modesty, family activities (which I can't stress enough) sobriety, and vigilance against the world into their homes. Maybe it will be through our joy and by extension the analogy of the compassion and mercy of God that gives them the will to fight in a decimated world and to conclude in the words of St. Paul our salvation is founded upon hope. May we be that for others and that might be the greatest interior mortification which exceeds all other penances.

What we strive for as Christians is sanctity. We have to be holy, as our heavenly Father is holy. The danger of any "movement" is that we become too focused and satisfied with its externals rather than its interior spirit, e.g. being satisfied with mere attendance of the Old Mass without regard for practicing the faith and holiness which the Old Mass teaches. Another danger is that we become slothful and proud in being a mere member of the movement, thinking that in recognising the defects in the wider Church it suffices to make one holy or even acceptable to God. Another danger is that the movement becomes a mere faction more preoccupied with polemics against its enemies or detractors rather than with following its own principles.

 Satan's primary method for poisoning Catholic Traditionalism is precisely to make it into a mere human faction within the Church fighting for its own rights and privileges, rather than its members being docile to the inspiration of the Holy Ghost for the restoration of the Church as a whole and willing to suffer persecutions and setbacks for the general salvation of souls. What Carol Jackson in obscurus' quotation and what bigbadtrad are counselling is precisely that we should be preoccupied first & foremost with submission to the Holy Ghost and living our lives as Christians, rather than as campaigners for a sect. If we live our life as Christians, relying on the grace of God and not on our own vain human efforts & campaigns, we will have that joy that bigbagtrad describes which will rescue us from the main sins which plague traditionalists - bitterness and scandal. Because traditionalists are so universally and so unjustly persecuted by members of the hierarchy, it is easy for us to develop something of a persecution syndrome where on the one hand we see ourselves as veritable martyrs by the mere fact of beings traditionalists, and on the other hand we become so bitterly offended by the betrayal of our pastors that we see anyone who is not explicitly for us as being against us (e.g. guiltless "Novus Ordoites"), and sin against charity. This is another of Satan's tactics. It would be beneficial to remind ourselves that there are "Novus Ordo Catholics" who are living more traditionally Catholic lives than many so-called traditionalists, whose traditionalism is vain.

That is what we must avoid: vain and superficial traditionalism. We are not an art movement concerned with the preservation of a beautiful ritual or baroque craft. We are here to keep the faith whole and entire, and to practice it.

Revival of traditional Catholic doctrine and practice in faith & morals - orthodoxy AND orthopraxis - should be the supreme end of Catholic Traditionalism. The Old Mass is our rallying banner and our most effective means for accomplishing this end, but Satan has worked to attract false brethren to that same banner and to make us proud and satisfied with the banner itself over and above what it signifies and what it points to: an integral & holy Catholic life. The primary reason that this is being frustrated is the upper hierarchy's betrayal of the faith, with the consequent lack of Catholic leadership. The shepherd is struck, the flock is scattered. When our superiors do not maintain their charity for us, it becomes ten times harder for us to maintain charity among ourselves. Traditionalists priests are affected by this problem perhaps more than the laity, because they are hampered more by modernist prelates than even we are; so it's easy for them to lose charity and for that to spill over into their parishes too. However, despite this failure of charity in the Church as a whole with its consequences for Catholic Traditionalism in particular, it does not make living a Catholic life impossible even if it makes it more difficult. We simply have to rely more and more on the Holy Spirit's guidance and in maintaining charity the best we can among ourselves, with our neighbours, and with our enemies (especially those in the Church).

What Greg points to as the failure of "Jansenist" trads to keep themselves or their children practicing the faith is due, I suspect, to them focusing more on the exterior trappings of traditionalism rather than the spirit of Catholicism in the first place, which is essentially one of rejoicing in God and the redemption He has worked for us in Christ. This is why the early posts in the thread decrying the triumph of the Jesuits and virtually lamenting the defeat of the actual Jansenists is a very grievous error: the Jansenists portrayed themselves as reviving the rigour of ancient Catholicism, but in reality their dark and sinister spirit was a Satanic inversion of the true spirit of the faith. The old saying about the Jansenists is that they were "pure as angels, and proud as devils." This is the devil's intention for Catholic Traditionalism as well: he would be very glad to see us pure as angels, if it also meant we were proud as devils (incidentally I heard Fr. Ripperger say in an online recording that trads generally struggle with purity, and that God allows it to punish their pride). Jesuits may have gone too far with moral laxism, I don't know; but they certainly didn't go too far in opposing the diabolical movement of Jansenism - and in tirelessly promoting its antidote given to the Church by God, devotion to the Sacred Heart - which over 150 years after it had been condemned by the Church, still had such an overall influence that a saint like St. Thérèse of Lisieux was being obstructed against receiving Holy Communion by her post-Jansenist influenced confessor. Those of you who feel sympathy with Jansenism ought to reflect that they often used to brag about not receiving Holy Communion for years due to their self-professed unworthiness and depravity - it was a demented sect.

Pon de Replay points to an abandonment of Catholic morals in the Church, even before Vatican II. His assertion that Early Christianity is dead and not alive in the Catholic Church because of moral laxity is due to gross exaggeration. First of all, decadence in the Church does not imply that the Church has apostatised. There were men of a similar spirit to Pon de Replay's in the Middle Ages who left the Church because they were scandalised by the decadent lives of many of her prelates at the time. St. Paul talks about degenerate behaviour for example in the Church of Corinth; while Pon de Replay extolls the moral rigour of the Church Fathers, he neglects to mention (from what I've read) that the same Church Fathers were decrying the widespread moral laxity among the Christians of their times, i.e. these Fathers were extraordinary examples of Christian virtue in their times, so one can hardly take their preaching as evidence that the Church was unequivocally more clean morally in their times than the Church has been in modern times. I'm not an historian of any sort but what I've heard doesn't seem to imply that the Church Fathers presided over a pristine Church; and for that matter, the apostles themselves in the New Testament complain of the errors and deviations in the Church already present. Now, one can undoubtedly say that there has been a collapse of Catholic morals in modern times, and especially after the modernisation project of Vatican II: but what could one expect when the Church has been so viciously persecuted, openly and surreptitiously, high and low, from within and from without, in modern times? We are talking about a persecution that has not been matched since the days of the pagan Roman emperors. And yet, despite all that, we still have our St. Thérèse of Lisieux, St. Maximilien Kolbe, and St. Padre Pio. So for Pon de Replay to imply that the Church has apostatised and Christianity no longer exists is frankly insulting. The Church still teaches Catholic morals and we still have saints practicing them. That we have so many traitors in the hierarchy and such a confused and fractured laity as a result has not prevented this, as the Church has the protection of the Holy Spirit. I had an interesting conversation with Pon de Replay a while back on this forum, where he talked about his loss of faith. He admitted early in this thread that he had tried to practice it rigorously but then gave up. I don't know the man and I can only speculate (and I hope not unjustly), but perhaps his trying to practice the faith in an over-rigorous fashion is what lead to his loss of faith. Whether he was holding himself or others to too a high a standard and ending up despairing as a result - I don't know. But the dangers of a too strict moral rigourism must be very strongly warned against, as with moral laxism.

Many have commented on the fact that we are swamped by a modern culture awash with indecency and occasion of sin. We're not in Jerusalem anymore. I think Catholics in the modern world ought to be comparing themselves to the Jews in Babylonian exile: "Upon the rivers of Babylon, there we sat and wept: when we remembered Sion" / "How doth the city sit solitary that was full of people! how is the mistress of the Gentiles become as a widow: the princes of provinces made tributary! Weeping she hath wept in the night, and her tears are on her cheeks: there is none to comfort her among all them that were dear to her: all her friends have despised her, and are become her enemies." The problem is that the core idea of the pastoral council Vatican II is to pretend not that we are in Neo-Babylon but that we are in the early stages of New Jerusalem; to pretend that the modern world somehow wasn't established in direct opposition to God and the Church, to divine and natural law. Anyhow, seeing as we truly are surrounded by so much filth we have to avoid two errors: 1. rolling in the filth ourselves, 2. expecting each of us to live the austere lives of monks, even those not called to a monastic life. "I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly." We cannot adopt the sinful mores of our pagan contemporaries, but that does not mean that we must abandon any and all recreation or comfort; instead, we should try to live as we would if we were living in a more fully Christian society like in the Middle Ages, and adopt recreation and comfort that wholesome and consonant with the faith.



« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 10:00:21 PM by John Lamb »
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Offline nmoerbeek

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #98 on: January 02, 2018, 10:05:17 PM »
But scriptural literalism is not necessarily the same thing as rigorism.  The Early Church Fathers took many passages figuratively; one pretty much has to in a religion whose founder taught in parables.  And yet those Fathers were rigorist.  So your beef is with practice, not doctrine.  And if your criteria is that "results matter," then your work is cut out for you.  One of the most "phucked up" religions in the world, as you see it, is nevertheless the second most populous religion in the world.  If traditional Catholicism is your product, then you're only successfully selling to less than one percent of the world's population (and some of the incoming class are rigorists themselves, persuaded by something other than your own claim that traditional Catholicism is a recipe for making one's life excellent: "dancing, drinking hard, and sinning").  The Early Church Fathers, on the other hand, evangelized a continent.

(And pretty much for everyone): by what right do you condemn me for holding to a changing/relative truth when you yourself hold to a changing/relative morality?  You're all quick to condemn me if I go against the Fathers on a matter of doctrine.  But then they didn't really "mean it" when it came to morality.  Now that's all historically conditioned, relative, etc.

This has been a bit of a thread hasn't it?  My examples used early on became topics unto themselves.  I don't subscribe to a relative morality, I rather acknowledge that the Faith has certain underlying and consistent principles that due to things that do change: time, region, cultures and circumstances are going to lead to different answers at different times for proper living in specifics: like playing chess.

I dont believe that tomorrow or yesterday it was ok to steal my neighbors chess board, or that I can club him to death with it while he sleeps, or that I can hide love notes to his wife on the underside of it.  That never has changed and never will change. 

I don't recall condemning you recently though I admit I was very surprised when you appeared to support the practice of receiving communion while living in a non sacramental second sexual union.  Wearing pearls might be a fault even a venial sin  if you want to follow St. Pauls admonition to women in a literal way, but Adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.
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Offline queen.saints

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2018, 12:17:57 AM »
My perspective is coloured by my near 40 years of experience of Tradom.

Jansenistic trads are not, usually, able to keep their children on the straight and narrow.  They might convince ~30% of their offspring to remain catholic in their Jansenistic bent, but I rarely see a wholly functional large Catholic family of Jansenists passing that down multigenerationally.  I have lived in Australia, UK, America and followed the path of Trads over a generation.

If I think back to the Jansenistic families of the 1980s and 1990s their children are, in the most part, disappeared.  And of those that remain, many are not Jansenistic.

I doubt many became modernists which means they mostly lapsed.  I am Kung Fu, so I go to every Latin Mass in a 50 mile radius.  If they went to Mass I would spot them eventually or hear about it through the Trad grapevine.  And yes, I do ask, because I am nosey.

The dancing, hard drinking, sinning Trads deliver the goods more often.

Results matter.

Where would one find these 30% remaining Jansenist trads?
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Offline tradne4163

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #100 on: January 03, 2018, 12:37:24 AM »
Simple rule of thumb: Would you feel comfortable watching/doing something with Jesus in the room? If the answer is no, then it may be wise to consider why and act accordingly.
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Offline Greg

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #101 on: January 03, 2018, 01:45:01 AM »
I wouldn't pick my nose in front of Jesus.  Does that mean I should not pick my nose?

We have no broadcast TV in the House. Our Nanny got Netflix so since it costs me nothing I downloaded it to the Wii.  The only thing my wife and I do together to relax is watch "The Crown" when the children are in bed. I watch the dramas about Mexican and Colombian drug dealers.  I agreed to Netflix because you could pick the programs and not have them broadcast at you.  I ditched TV decades ago because it was getting ridiculous.

We watched House of Cards but quit watching when Frank Underwood started kissing a man.  Now I have ditched El Chapo too, because the Mexican chief of police is a queer and there are long queer scenes.

Yesterday in "The Crown" Lord Snowdon's character had a gratuitous sex scene with a Chinese photomodel and then later was shown in bed with married couple.  So now Netflix is going too, because you can't even get a story without porn being shown.  You can fast forward but it means sitting there with your hand hovering over the Wii Control which kind of defeats the purpose of having a cuddle on the couch and something to talk about in bed or at breakfast the next morning.

But where to draw the line?  Is there any TV or movie I can watch with my own wife to wind down at the end of the day 1 or 2 days per week?  Even Downtown Abbey has nudity and sex scenes, homosexual butlers etc.  She doesn't like much on TV.  "Call the Midwife"?.  Pretty sure I have seen tits and bums in that too and frankly it's not the sort of entertainment that entertain me.

The Sound of Music is pornography according to Bishop Williamson.  Following that line means throwing out my entire DVD collection.

And even the good Bishop who once warned us that "nothing good can come from the internet", and to "stay away from it", now publishes his blogs and writings on the platform from which we are all just a few clicks away from any level of depravity we wish to see?  How can the Internet be anything other than a massive near occasion of sin?  You are literally connected to PicoBytes of free porn, dating websites and people who will strip down and wiggle their naughty bits at you as part of "Social Networking"?  The internet's overloads, mostly Jews, can even control the pop up adverts you see based on your age and demographic.

It's easier, less embarrassing and less risky to find debauchery on the internet than ever it was to stretch up to the top shelf magazines or sneak into a 8th Avenue peep show or the local titty bar.  If you would avoid the red light district or the newsagent who sold porn 30 years ago, then why the hell would you have an internet connection at home?

Even Bishop Williamson who warns us of the dangers of Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer ventures into this digital ocean of filth with his YouTube videos and Blog postings.  Why tempt us your grace ?  Stick to printed mailings, VHS videos or a dial up bulletin board.

Would Jesus do that?  Would Jesus Vlog on the same platform that carries more porn than any other type of data?

We could all live without the Internet.  It would be difficult but certainly possible.  I'd have to quit my job and work in some other field, lower paid, but what's that when compared to your immortal soul?

So when I have moved my children to the boonies, and cut them off from the internet and we spend our evenings reading Victorian era novels and playing parlour games and we cannot get to mass because that would involve living near the great unwashed or porn addicted masses, then what?  Who do my kids socialise with and marry?  How do they communicate with them?  Writing letters by candlelight?  Many people under 30 can't even use the telephone anymore.  I have candidates who want to do first job interviews by text message.  Seriously.  They don't know how to speak to a stranger on the telephone and conduct themselves.

After the Holy Spirit came down why did the major disciples and apostles not set up a commune far out in the boonies of Jordan or Syria, to avoid occasions of sin?  Why on earth would they go and set up shop in pagan Rome that had pagan depravity on every street corner and prostitutes flashing themselves from first floor windows in the 1st Century's equivalent of pop-up ads?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 02:07:53 AM by Greg »
 
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Offline Xavier

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #102 on: January 03, 2018, 01:49:19 AM »
Two things - please don't follow someone like a Jerome or an Ibranyi off a cliff, until you or your family loses the Faith or ceases to practice; on the other hand, take someone like St. Padre Pio, who not only knew but manifestly lived the teaching of the early Fathers; now, he deserves to be emulated; he was very stern against immoral fashions and pagan conduct, sometimes even refusing absolution to those impenitent and obstinate in displaying and promoting them. He had many manifest miraculous gifts, including that of reading hearts, he rebuked both lax laity and religious who in his words were "denaturing themselves" by trying to imitate the world. Manifestly a tradionalist on morality through and through and a prophet for our times.

If we don't see that civilization has gone from Christian to heathen again in the last 50 to 100 years, we're burying our heads in the sand. Just look at the increase in rates of fornication, contraception use, proliferation of pornographic images on display in the media everwhere and other widespread forms of impurity and immorality.

The early Christians deserve only measureless praise. They lived in a culture as barbarous as ours; a heathen culture where the killing of children was legal; where men were killed for sport in gladiatorial theatres; where prostitutes served in pagan temples; where evil and wickedness seemed triumphant everywhere. And yet, they were the victors! The victors because they rejected the world as the bride of Satan and considered all its vain allurements as nought; desiring to live only for Christ and His Church, heroic and glorious martyrs like St. Agnes did not fear public shame to preserve their fidelity to Christ.

And boy, were the Romans amazed at such power! They practically worshipped power, yet in all their conquests, they had never seen anything like this! How could anyone remain calm and even joyful when being thrown to lions or stripped naked? What new and divine power was this which all the might of heathendom was powerless to overthrow?

And before long, God miraculously intervened, giving Constantine the Great visions of His Holy Cross. As Christianity rose triumphant over a vanquished paganism, orphanages replaced infanticide; the councils willed hospitals to be established wherever there were churches, the Christian hospitals that were "the world's first voluntary charitable institutions" . This history is recounted by Prof. Tom Woods in "How the Catholic Church built western civilization" and "How Christianity changed the world" by Prof. Alvin Schmidt.

Against modern pagans and apostates from the Faith today, we must recall the way to victory over heathenism; it is by heroic sacrifices, by gratefully accepted suffering, by voluntary penances and lifelong martyrdom; Christ has done it before in the early Christians and He will do it in us again.
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Offline tradne4163

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2018, 02:06:19 AM »
I wouldn't pick my nose in front of Jesus.  Does that mean I should not pick my nose?

We have no broadcast TV in the House. Our Nanny got Netflix so since it costs me nothing I downloaded it to the Wii.  The only thing my wife and I do together to relax is watch "The Crown" when the children are in bed. I watch the dramas about Mexican and Colombian drug dealers.  I agreed to Netflix because you could pick the programs and not have them broadcast at you.  I ditched TV decades ago because it was getting ridiculous.

We watched House of Cards but quit watching when Frank Underwood started kissing a man.  Now I have ditched El Chapo too, because the Mexican chief of police is a queer and there are long queer scenes.

Yesterday in "The Crown" Lord Snowdon's character had a gratuitous sex scene with a Chinese photomodel and then later was shown in bed with married couple.  So now Netflix is going too, because you can't even get a story without porn being shown.  You can fast forward but it means sitting there with your hand hovering over the Wii Control which kind of defeats the purpose of having a cuddle on the couch and something to talk about in bed or at breakfast the next morning.

But where to draw the line?  Is there any TV or movie I can watch with my own wife to wind down at the end of the day 1 or 2 days per week?  Even Downtown Abbey has nudity and sex scenes, homosexual butlers etc.  She doesn't like much.  "Call the Midwife"?.  Pretty sure I have seen tits and bums in that too.

The Sound of Music is pornography according to Bishop Williamson.  Following that line means throwing out my entire DVD collection.

And even the good Bishop who once warned us that "nothing good can come from the internet", and to "stay away from it", now publishes his blogs and writings on the platform from which we are all just a few clicks away from any level of depravity we wish to see?  How can the Internet be anything other than a massive near occasion of sin?  You are literally connected to PicoBytes of free porn, dating websites and people who will strip down and wiggle their naughty bits at you as part of "Social Networking"?  The internet's overloads, mostly Jews, can even control the pop up adverts you see based on your age and demographic.

Even Bishop Williamson who warns us of the dangers of Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer ventures into this digital ocean of filth with his YouTube videos and Blog postings.  Why tempt us your grace ?

Would Jesus do that?  Would Jesus Vlog on the same platform that carries more porn than any other type of data.

We could all live without the Internet.  It would be difficult but certainly possible.  I'd have to quit my job and work in some other field, lower paid, but what's that when compared to your immortal soul?

So when I have moved my children to the boonies, and cut them off from the internet and we spend our evenings reading Victorian era novels and playing parlour games and we cannot get to mass because that would involve living near the great unwashed or porn addicted masses, then what?  Who do my kids socialise with and marry?  How do they communicate with them?  Writing letters by candlelight?  Many people under 30 can't even use the telephone anymore.  I have candidates who want to do first job interviews by text message.  Seriously.  They don't know how to speak to a stranger on the telephone and conduct themselves.

After the Holy Spirit came down why did the major disciples and apostles not set up a commune far out in the boonies of Jordan or Syria, to avoid occasions of sin?  Why on earth would they go and set up shop in pagan Rome that had pagan depravity on every street corner and prostitutes flashing themselves from first floor windows in the 1st Century's equivalent of pop-up ads?
It is simply a rule of thumb, my friend. My point is not to overcomplicate things. Also, I said to examine why one might say "no," not necessarily throw it out. Your wisecrack on nose picking proves that exact point.

The internet is another example of what I mean. There is a plethora of beneficial things online, too. And lots of things at least indifferent. The idea is to actually think and use judgement based on a well formed conscience rather than relying on a list of dos and don'ts that may be fine for one, but problematic in practice for another, as your internet example shows.
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Offline Greg

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Re: Traditional Catholics and secular culture
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2018, 02:11:52 AM »
It's beneficial to my marriage to watch "The Crown" with my wife.  She enjoys it, I enjoy it.  It's one of a very few programs we like watching together.

How much pornography, sex scenes and nudity is acceptable for that benefit?