Author Topic: Priests to be allowed to marry after 2019 synod? Women priests after that?  (Read 4478 times)

Offline ermy_law

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 127
  • Thanked: 77 times
  • Religion: Catholic (SSPX Attendee)
In response to one of the points made above:

Married priests do not hear the confession of their wives or children.

Which married priests? I have seen this done among the Russian Orthodox diaspora.
 

Offline JackoPaul

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 380
  • Thanked: 121 times
  • Religion: Trumpism
does that mean homosexual priests will be able to marry each other?
 
The following users thanked this post: james03, Elizabeth, Michael Wilson, Traditionallyruralmom

Offline Greg

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Major
  • ****
  • Posts: 12123
  • Thanked: 6752 times
  • Some sacrifices are WELL worth making.
  • Religion: Kung Fu
Keep it up. You'll wake up one day and find yourself in a church that calls itself Catholic but is Protestant.

We've been there for decades.
Retired to Rivendell.
 
The following users thanked this post: Habitual_Ritual, Traditionallyruralmom, aquinas138

Offline spasiisochrani

  • Vizekorporal
  • **
  • Posts: 208
  • Thanked: 85 times
  • Religion: Catholic
In response to one of the points made above:

Married priests do not hear the confession of their wives or children.

Which married priests? I have seen this done among the Russian Orthodox diaspora.

The (Catholic) Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches does not address the issue, but my pastor says it is just not done.  His wife and children go to a neighboring Latin parish for confession.
 

Offline St. Drogo

  • Korporal
  • **
  • Posts: 292
  • Thanked: 368 times
I suppose I’m in the minority, but what’s new? While recognizing the superiority of celibacy (since that fact is scripturally established by Paul), I am not averse to ordaining married men. Trad or not, the faithful Catholic married men I know are consistently less homosexual seeming than the bulk of priests (sadly, trad or not). The historical evidence for continency of married priests is scant (exluding, naturally, the consistently celibate episcopate in the East and West).
 

Offline jovan66102

  • La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 921
  • Thanked: 375 times
  • La foi Catholique d'abord! La mort à l'Islam!
    • Musings of an Old Curmudgeon
  • Religion: Catholic
As I pointed out, if the West changes its discipline, it's the opening wedge. Next it's allowing priests to marry, a married Episcopate, and calls for 'priestesses'.
Jovan-Marya Weismiller, T.O.Carm.

Vive le Christ-roi! Vive le roi, Louis XX!
Deum timete, regem honorificate.
Kansan by birth! Albertan by choice! Jayhawk by the Grace of God!
“Qui me amat, amet et canem meum. (Who loves me will love my dog also.)” St Bernard of Clairvaux
https://musingsofanoldcurmudgeon.blogspot.com/
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier

Offline lauermar

  • "Fasten your seat belts, it's going to be a bumpy night!" from 'All About Eve' (1950).
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 1135
  • Thanked: 298 times
  • Baby Boomer
  • Religion: Traditional Diocesan Catholic
Here's an update:

Smith said that she had “serious concerns” about some of the recommendations and other content and about the fact the some of the most significant points in the document, such as speaking of the “regional" church” the promotion of a synod of laity who would take part in determining doctrine, and the ordination of female deacons, were not fully discussed during the course of the meetings.  She was not invited back to be a part of the commission as it considers the question of how the universal and local church in communion discern right ethical teaching.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in
"I am not a pessimist. I am not an optimist. I am a realist." Father Malachi Martin (1921-1999)
 
The following users thanked this post: aquinas138, Xavier

Offline aquinas138

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 897
  • Thanked: 809 times
  • Māran etraḥam 'lay!
Here's an update:

Smith said that she had “serious concerns” about some of the recommendations and other content and about the fact the some of the most significant points in the document, such as speaking of the “regional" church” the promotion of a synod of laity who would take part in determining doctrine, and the ordination of female deacons, were not fully discussed during the course of the meetings.  She was not invited back to be a part of the commission as it considers the question of how the universal and local church in communion discern right ethical teaching.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-publishes-document-declaring-a-female-diaconate-is-a-possibility-in

Whatever disagreements we have had in this thread – the bolded portion would be an unmitigated disaster.
O unashamed intercessor of Christians, ever loyal advocate before the Creator, do not disregard the prayerful voice of sinners but in your goodness hasten to assist us who trustfully cry out to you: Intercede always, O Mother of God, in behalf of those who honor you!
 
The following users thanked this post: Xavier

Offline Xavier

  • Immaculate Heart of Divine Mother Mary, Save us and the Whole World. Sweet Heart of Immaculate Mary, make of Pope Mario-Francis a Great Saint. Purest Immaculate Heart of Mary, Preserve the Hierarchy, Clergy and Religious in the Truth of the Catholic Faith
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3724
  • Thanked: 2876 times
  • Indian Catholic
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: Catholic Christian (Roman Rite Latin Traditionalist)
Article from the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/17/world/europe/vatican-priests-married-men.html
Quote
"ROME — In a potentially groundbreaking move, the Roman Catholic Church on Monday cracked open the door to ordaining married, elderly men to the priesthood to meet the pastoral needs of Catholics in remote areas of the Amazon.

The proposal would respond to the dearth of priests in the region by ordaining “viri probati,” or men of proven character, as they are known in Latin. It is the kind of exception to the celibacy requirement that church experts say — and church traditionalists worry — could be a step toward the ordination of married men in other areas of the world.

While affirming that “celibacy is a gift for the Church,” the Vatican document notes that there have been requests to consider, for the most remote areas of the Amazon, “the possibility of conferring priestly ordination on elderly men, preferably indigenous, respected and accepted members of their community.” Such men, the document said, could be ordained “even if they already have an established and stable family.”

Pope Francis has said in the past that he would entertain the possibility of ordaining “viri probati” in remote areas that are deprived of the sacraments. But he has also made clear that the church’s broader commitment to celibacy for priests remains intact."

Celibacy in the Early Church from Unam Sanctam Catholicam: Just one source among many, "Canon 3 of the Council of Carthage (390)

"Bishop Genthelius says: As was previously said, it is fitting that the holy bishops and priests of God as well as the Levites; i.e., those who are in the service of the divine sacraments, observe perfect continence, so that they may obtain in all simplicity what they are asking from God; what the apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed, let us also endeavor to keep.

The bishops declared unanimously: It pleases us all that bishop, priest and deacon, guardians of purity, abstain from conjugal intercourse with their wives, so that those who serve the altar may keep a perfect chastity."

Again, the need to devote themselves to constant prayer is cited as the reason for priestly continence. This commitment to absolute continence is said to be "what the apostles taught and what antiquity itself observed." http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.com/history/79-history/465-celibacy-in-the-early-church.html

And to recap the summary of that historical study from Catholic education posted earlier, "St. Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) stated, "Holy Church respects the dignity of the priesthood to such a point that she does not admit to the deaconate, the priesthood or the episcopate, nor even to the subdeaconate, anyone still living in marriage and begetting children. She accepts only him who if married gives up his wife or has lost her by death, especially in those places where the ecclesiastical canons are strictly attended to." The local, Spanish Council of Elvira (306) imposed celibacy on bishops, priests, and deacons: "We decree that all bishops, priests, deacons, and all clerics engaged in the ministry are forbidden entirely to live with their wives and to beget children: whoever shall do so will be deposed from the clerical dignity." Later, the Council of Carthage extended the celibacy requirement to the subdeaconate ... At the ecumenical Council of Nicea I (325), Bishop Hosius of Cordova proposed a decree mandating clerical celibacy, including for those clergy already married. Egyptian Bishop Paphnutius, unmarried himself, rose in protest, asserting that such a requirement would be too rigorous and imprudent. Rather, those members of the clergy already married should continue to be faithful to their wives, and those who were unmarried should personally decide whether or not to be celibate. As a consequence, no church-wide requirement for priests to be celibate was mandated. For the Western Church several popes decreed celibacy: Damasus I (384), Siricius (385), Innocent I (404), and Leo I (458). Local councils issued edicts imposing celibacy on the clergy: in Africa, Carthage (390, 401-19); in France, Orange (441) and Tours (461); and in Italy, Turin (398). By the time of Pope Leo I (d. 461), no bishop, priest, deacon, or subdeacon could be married. Nevertheless, the rules were not always as enforced as they should have been ... "  https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/celibacy-in-the-priesthood.html

It is clearly not at all the Will of God for the Roman-Rite Church to revise the Apostolic and Canonical Norm and Tradition of Clerical Continence.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 08:28:15 AM by Xavier »
Please Consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart daily, especially in the Sacred Month of August: Do never secede for any pretended reason from the Pope and the Bishops, and pray and work for the Pope and the Bishops to Consecrate Russia one day, as they infallibly will quite soon. Consecrate Russia yourself in Communion and in Union with the Pope and Bishops. Please consecrate aborted babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Please also offer the Precious Blood of Jesus' Heart to the Eternal Father, and our Lives in Sacrifice in Union with It, and with Mary's Immaculate Heart, that Jerusalem may be saved, Judah be restored, and the Jews may at long last happily be returned to saving Faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Offline Xavier

  • Immaculate Heart of Divine Mother Mary, Save us and the Whole World. Sweet Heart of Immaculate Mary, make of Pope Mario-Francis a Great Saint. Purest Immaculate Heart of Mary, Preserve the Hierarchy, Clergy and Religious in the Truth of the Catholic Faith
  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3724
  • Thanked: 2876 times
  • Indian Catholic
    • Marian Apostolate Life Offering.
  • Religion: Catholic Christian (Roman Rite Latin Traditionalist)
Here is Canon 33 of the Council of Elvira(305 A.D):

"It has seemed good to absolutely forbid the bishops, the priests, and the deacons, i.e., all the clerics in the service of the sacred ministry, to have relations with their wives and procreate children; should anyone do so, let him be excluded from the honor of the clergy."

The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically. Continence is mandated for all Major Orders - deacon, priest, bishop - and it is made explicitly clear that this applies to married clerics in a particular way. Neither this synod nor any subsequent councils suggest they are promulgating novelty. Elvira and succeeding synods state that they are simply reaffirming existing Tradition.

Canon 29 of the First Council of Arles (314)

"Moreover, concerned with what is worthy, pure, and honest, we exhort our brothers in the episcopate to make sure that priests and deacons have no [sexual] relations with their wives, since they are serving the ministry everyday. Whoever will act against this decision will be deposed from the honor of the clergy."

Notice how continence is linked to the permanent ministerial activity of the cleric, as we saw with Tertullian and Origen."

From the Unam Sanctam Catholicam link given earlier; see how clear the early Canons and the early Councils, like the early Popes, are on the general norm of Sacerdotal Celibacy being closely linked with daily or perpetual ministry at the Holy Sacrifice of the Altar.

And let Catholic ultra ultra ultra-montanists take a second, a third, and if necessary a 1000th or 10000th look if necessary at the statement of St. Bridget- indeed, of Our Lady Herself through Her to us, specifically for these our times - to convince themselves once and for all that a Pope can make mistakes - and that without losing his office. Although indeed we must confess that a Pope who made this mistake would lose his own soul.

So, as good and faithful children of Christ our great High Priest and of His only Bride, our Holy Mother the Church, let us pray that that never happens and let us resolve to become true prayer warriors capable of winning breakthroughs through prayer alone, as Origen and Scripture says Moses won against the Amalekites, and let us labour to save Pope Francis' Soul.
Please Consecrate yourself to the Immaculate Heart daily, especially in the Sacred Month of August: Do never secede for any pretended reason from the Pope and the Bishops, and pray and work for the Pope and the Bishops to Consecrate Russia one day, as they infallibly will quite soon. Consecrate Russia yourself in Communion and in Union with the Pope and Bishops. Please consecrate aborted babies every day. You can save unborn children with every prayer for their Baptism that you say and help efficaciously end terrible abortion-killing worldwide.

Mary, our Heavenly Mother, implores those who receive Holy Communion Daily, or at least Weekly, to Offer their Lives. TEXT OF THE LIFE OFFERING, adapted and pluralized: Dear Lord Jesus, before the Holy Trinity, Our Heavenly Mother, and the whole Heavenly Court, united with Your most Precious Blood and Your Sacrifice on Calvary, We hereby Offer our whole Lives to the Intention of Your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Together with our life, we place at Your disposal all Holy Masses, all our Holy Communions, all Rosaries, all acts of consecration, all our good deeds, all our sacrifices, and the suffering of our entire life for the Adoration and Supplication of the Holy Trinity, for Unity in our Holy Mother Church, for the Holy Father, Pope Francis the First; and for His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI. For His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and His Holiness Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople, that they may re-unite their flocks with the Catholic Church, and there may soon be but One Fold and One Shepherd. For all the Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church, for all Bishops of the Universal Church that they may be true Apostles and Shepherds; and for Priests, Nuns and Monks, for good Priestly and Religious Vocations, and for All Souls until the end of the world. O my Jesus, please accept our life Sacrifice and our offerings and give us Your grace that we may all persevere obediently until death. Amen." https://marianapostolate.com/life-offering/ Please pray this daily and you and your family will be saved. You will avoid Purgatory.

A simple effective way for thousands of us to save millions of souls. Please also offer the Precious Blood of Jesus' Heart to the Eternal Father, and our Lives in Sacrifice in Union with It, and with Mary's Immaculate Heart, that Jerusalem may be saved, Judah be restored, and the Jews may at long last happily be returned to saving Faith in Jesus Christ.
 

Offline Vetus Ordo

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2242
  • Thanked: 1730 times
  • Religion: The Way
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.
DISPOSE OUR DAYS IN THY PEACE, AND COMMAND US TO BE DELIVERED FROM ETERNAL DAMNATION, AND TO BE NUMBERED IN THE FLOCK OF THINE ELECT.
 
The following users thanked this post: aquinas138, Fleur-de-Lys

Offline St.Justin

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 2089
  • Thanked: 831 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
The rule in all Catholic Rites is that allow married clergy as always been. Married men can be Ordained but once Ordained they aren't allow to marry ans this applies to permanent Deacons in the Latin Rite. Is this norm changing??/
 

Offline The Harlequin King

  • Feldwebel
  • ***
  • Posts: 3425
  • Thanked: 1085 times
    • Modern Medievalism
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.

Yeah. It puzzles me why Elvira is frequently quoted by trads as a silver bullet against married clergy in all cases when there are all kinds of funky canons therein. Elvira was historically significant as a precursor to the first real ecumenical council at Nicaea, but on the other hand, it primarily addressed issues stemming from a small part of the Christian world (southern Spain).
 
The following users thanked this post: Vetus Ordo

Offline Davis Blank - EG

  • St. Joseph's Workbench
  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 516
  • Thanked: 666 times
  • Religion: Roman Catholic
Once we have married priests we will have to switch to three divorces is a-ok so that Father Bob does not scandalize the laity when he inevitably gets a divorce or two or three.
 
The following users thanked this post: Lynne, Xavier

Offline Sempronius

  • Wachtmeister
  • ***
  • Posts: 616
  • Thanked: 337 times
The Spanish Synod of Elvira, occurring eight years before the Edict of Milan and twenty-years before Nicaea, represents the first time we see the law of continence specifically spelled out canonically.

Elvira also forbade images in churches.

Yeah. It puzzles me why Elvira is frequently quoted by trads as a silver bullet against married clergy in all cases when there are all kinds of funky canons therein. Elvira was historically significant as a precursor to the first real ecumenical council at Nicaea, but on the other hand, it primarily addressed issues stemming from a small part of the Christian world (southern Spain).

The council fathers at Nicaea debated about celibacy, so the issue wasnt settled by the Elvira council.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 12:23:25 AM by Sempronius »