Author Topic: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)  (Read 86983 times)

Offline Sojourn

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2017, 11:42:29 AM »
Peace be with you Gerard,

I wish I would have had an opportunity to discuss this earlier in the thread. As with any extraordinary phenomena there needs to be critical analysis to ascertain that the even actually took place. Let us assume that the account you referenced to actually occurred. Let us further assume that the visionary remembered the event acurately. Let us assume that that the way the visionary interpreted the event is also accurate. And finally, let us assume it has all be accurately recorded and translated.

There is a lot of assuming here even before we lay persons can begin to analyze this event theologically. It is of course entirely possible that a visionary can incorrectly interpret an event or even inaccurately recall the details of an event that did happen. I think for the most part it is beyond reasonable doubt that a major prodigy occurred in Portugal in the early part of the 20th century. Attempts to suggest this was diabolic is simply untenable for numerous reasons but right now I want to review the Gerard's points.

The first red flag for me is the fact of the Angel giving communion at all.  Not specifically for a doctrinal reason, but from the point of view of someone condemning modern practices, its hardly useful to cite an "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion" in a pre-Vatican II event.  The doctrinal issue would be…since the ordained alone should be the distributers of Holy Communion and that means men alone should be
distributing Holy Communion, why is a genderless Angel non-ordained giving Holy Communion?

Brother, this is a rather extreme and untoward line of reasoning. First you make the assumption that God is somehow bound to Canon Law. Secondly, you take a "should" for a "must". That humans are bound to the sacraments does not mean God is bound to them. That an ordained priest *should* be the minister of Holy Communion does not make it a must even in the human order. God is omnipotent and free to communicate grace even in an entirely spiritual way outside of constraints within the human order. Therefore, your argument here is not valid.

Quote
But since the younger kids haven't yet had their Holy Communion (and we can presume their first Confession)  an ANGEL is going give them their FIRST HOLY COMMUNIONin the form of WINE  without their parents' or Godparents' consent

Again brother, this is extreme reasoning that is rather absurd. Do you really expect a being that is in the presence of God and sent by Him needs permission of human Godparents? The thought of an angel appearing before a human to ask permission is ridiculous.

Quote
And further on we read the kids automatically have scruples about the incident due to the mercurial decision of the Angel to refuse them the same thing in one form because they haven't yet had their first Holy Communion so, the Angel will give them their first Holy Communion in the other form.   

God knows, brother, but your questioning here does not mean the event did not occur.
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2017, 12:59:17 PM »
But since the younger kids haven't yet had their Holy Communion (and we can presume their first Confession)  an ANGEL is going give them their FIRST HOLY COMMUNIONin the form of WINE  without their parents' or Godparents' consent

Again brother, this is extreme reasoning that is rather absurd. Do you really expect a being that is in the presence of God and sent by Him needs permission of human Godparents? The thought of an angel appearing before a human to ask permission is ridiculous.

Surely the angel wouldn't have wished to over-ride the God given authority of parents and priest. Displaying respect for this authority would have set an example for the children.

Gerard's point about Fatima over-riding God given authority seems relevant here.

And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

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Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline jmjZelie

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2017, 01:03:04 PM »
But since the younger kids haven't yet had their Holy Communion (and we can presume their first Confession)  an ANGEL is going give them their FIRST HOLY COMMUNIONin the form of WINE  without their parents' or Godparents' consent

Again brother, this is extreme reasoning that is rather absurd. Do you really expect a being that is in the presence of God and sent by Him needs permission of human Godparents? The thought of an angel appearing before a human to ask permission is ridiculous.

Surely the angel wouldn't have wished to over-ride the God given authority of parents and priest. Displaying respect for this authority would have set an example for the children.

Gerard's point about Fatima over-riding God given authority seems relevant here.

And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.

I had wondered about this. Are the First Saturday devotions described differently? Is the Fatima version identical to the one defined and approved by Pope Pius X or is it different?
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Offline Sojourn

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2017, 01:05:33 PM »
Surely the angel wouldn't have wished to over-ride the God given authority of parents and priest. Displaying respect for this authority would have set an example for the children.

Again brother, to me the notion of an Angel appearing before their godparents asking permission to perform a miraculous administration of the Eucharist seems ridiculous to me. Perhaps this is a subjective opinion of mine but I just don't see this as being realistic.

God is not bound by Canon Law or any other restriction of the human order. Our Lord gave the command that all must be born again of water and spirit, thereby making baptism an absolute necessity, yet He granted the good thief entry into heaven without ever receiving formal baptism with running water. Likewise, God need not have had his Angel first ask permission of Jacinta's godparents (!)
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2017, 01:18:53 PM »
Giving first Communion to children without permission:  Ok.

Lucia revealing third secret text without permission:  not ok.

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Online mikemac

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2017, 03:36:32 PM »
And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.

I had wondered about this. Are the First Saturday devotions described differently? Is the Fatima version identical to the one defined and approved by Pope Pius X or is it different?

Hi jmjZelie.  Awkwardcustomer's concerns about the First Saturdays have already been addressed to him in a previous thread.  See this post.
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17803.msg395707#msg395707
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
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https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2017, 04:34:44 PM »
And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.

I had wondered about this. Are the First Saturday devotions described differently? Is the Fatima version identical to the one defined and approved by Pope Pius X or is it different?

Hi jmjZelie.  Awkwardcustomer's concerns about the First Saturdays have already been addressed to him in a previous thread.  See this post.
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17803.msg395707#msg395707

So they have been changed? Am I understanding this correctly?

For my own self, I have never been able to complete the 5 First Saturdays. My family and I have tried for years to do it and we always have some sort of conflict, usually illness in one of our children, that prevents us from even beginning the devotion. It has been absolutely maddening. We get the breakfast made ahead, the clothes laid out, everything in place for Saturday morning Mass. And then overnight, someone gets sick. My husband and I decided that we would stop trying, because it was just too much of a hardship to try to do it with our family. Surprisingly, we never have this problem with Sunday Mass. At the present time, other than Sunday Mass, our weekly devotions and faith practices are only at home. That being said, we felt just awful that we were unable to fulfill what seemed to be such a simple request.
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Online mikemac

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 04:50:02 PM »
And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.

I had wondered about this. Are the First Saturday devotions described differently? Is the Fatima version identical to the one defined and approved by Pope Pius X or is it different?

Hi jmjZelie.  Awkwardcustomer's concerns about the First Saturdays have already been addressed to him in a previous thread.  See this post.
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17803.msg395707#msg395707

So they have been changed? Am I understanding this correctly?

For my own self, I have never been able to complete the 5 First Saturdays. My family and I have tried for years to do it and we always have some sort of conflict, usually illness in one of our children, that prevents us from even beginning the devotion. It has been absolutely maddening. We get the breakfast made ahead, the clothes laid out, everything in place for Saturday morning Mass. And then overnight, someone gets sick. My husband and I decided that we would stop trying, because it was just too much of a hardship to try to do it with our family. Surprisingly, we never have this problem with Sunday Mass. At the present time, other than Sunday Mass, our weekly devotions and faith practices are only at home. That being said, we felt just awful that we were unable to fulfill what seemed to be such a simple request.

They have been changed from 15 to 5 First Saturdays.  Yeah jmjZelie, it can be difficult.  Something always turns up.  Like I said in that post, it took me a full year to do the 5 First Saturdays the first time and eight months the second time I did it.  And that's just me, I don't have a family to get together to do it.  I'm sure 15 consecutive First Saturdays would be much harder.  That probably would have taken me at least three years to complete. 
Like John Vennari (RIP) said "Why not just do it?  What would it hurt?"
Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (PETITION)
https://lifepetitions.com/petition/consecrate-russia-to-the-immaculate-heart-of-mary-petition

"We would be mistaken to think that Fatima’s prophetic mission is complete." Benedict XVI May 13, 2010

"Tell people that God gives graces through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.  Tell them also to pray to the Immaculate Heart of Mary for peace, since God has entrusted it to Her." Saint Jacinta Marto

The real nature of hope is “despair, overcome.”
Source
 

Offline tradical

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 08:01:13 PM »
My post on the Remnant for archival purposes.

Quote
So, let me get this straight.  The claim here is, the Angel doesn't give Francisco and Jacinta the Holy Eucharist in the form of bread, because they haven't yet received their first Holy Communion.  And this genderless, non-ordained "extraordinary minister of Holy Communion"  then gives these children their First Holy Communion (without first Penance) and he gives it to them in the form of Wine???? And without the consent or knowledge of the parents or Godparents if need be?  And the kids have scruples and doubts a minute after the "Angel" departs?  All to teach a small minority of Catholics a hundred years later that Latin Rite Catholics should not do what Latin Rite Catholics did centuries before and intinction is out the door for Latin Rite Catholics anyway? (what was sacred then is not sacred now?)   Are we also to draw from this that Extraordinaray Ministers of Holy Communion are okay and First Communion without First Penance preceding it is also okay?  And parents and priests are not to be the authorities on when and how the Firsts of Communion and Penance are to be given?   But if the parents and parish are to be involved, you simply override it by giving the kids the same consubstantial God in the form of Wine.  Sorry, it didn't happen, not if the Catholic Church is true.  If this had been Medjugorje, trads would have been all over these problems in the narrative.  But if you put "Fatima" in front of it, the whole Deposit of Faith can be up for grabs and "understood through the lens of Fatima" the way John Paul II viewed the whole deposit of Faith "through Vatican II."   Have the courage to hold onto the unadulterated doctrine of the Church and view Fatima as if you or you parents or grandparents had never heard about it, or if it was a modern apparition and the serious doctrinal problems with it will suddenly sprint into high relief.   I wonder if this time, this post will be allowed to stand and not be marked as spam like my previous posts.  I'm double posting this on Suscipe Domine for safe keeping. 

 
I don't have time to unpack all the issues with this rationalization, but I will strike at three key points.

First of all, I will strike at "Gerard's" unstated assumption that the Catholic Church never examined this event in the 100 years that have passed.  Given that the Church has approved these events as worthy of belief, this assumption shows the height of  pride that is best described by the word hubris. 

Given that the Church performed the investigation and officially declared them to be worthy of belief and devoid of theological error - I take the stance of the Church and disregard the opinion of Gerard .

Second point, Gerard leaps from an Angel giving communion to 'Extraordinary Ministers' (I can only assume that he meant 'Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers' (EEC).  I'm sorry but there is a significant difference between a spotless angel giving Holy Communion and an EEC.  I'm surprised that the difference was lost on Gerard.

Third point, noting the approval of the Church of the apparaitions, we have an Angel of God giving the communion in preparation for the trials that the children are about to undergo.  Assuming that the Angel of God was acting under obedience to God (a very good assumption by the way), then given that God knows the state of the souls of the Children and that He would not command a sacrilege that the children were in a state of grace and had sufficient knowledge / understanding of what they were receiving.  Hence the 'First Penance', under the authority of God can be dispensed. Further, Gerard attempts to make a fuss about the parents permission being sought. I can just see how the conversation would have gone:

Quote from: Angel
Hi, I'm an Angle of God, no please get up and don't worship me, I'm just a creature. Thank you. Yes, I've come to ask your permission to fulfill the order given to me by God to given Holy Communion under the species of wine to your children, Jacinta and Francisco. Why?  Oh, because He desires to call them to a high degree of holiness and prepare them for suffering and death.

Let's be frank about this:

God does not need to ask permission to grant communion, just as He did not need ask permission of Abraham when He commanded him to offer Isaac.  It suffices to say that if God commands it, then it cannot be anything other than correct to obey.
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Offline Pheo

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2017, 08:05:14 PM »
And if the problem is with the angel just touching the sacred species, I can only say:

Supplices te rogamus, omnipotens Deus, iube hæc perferri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublime altare tuum...
(We humbly beseech Thee, Almighty God, command these to be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high...)
Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation.
 
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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2017, 08:39:55 PM »
I'm confused about timelines - again.

The Church approval of Fatima concerns only the apparitions that took place between May and October 1917. The approval is quite specific about this.

But according to Sr Lucy's memoirs, published in 1941, the apparitions of the Angel took place in 1916.

Could it be that the apparitions of the Angel are not approved by the Church?  Not only did they take place a year before the approved apparitions, but Sr Lucy didn't write them down until 1941, eleven years after Church approval in 1930.
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2017, 08:41:59 PM »
The timeline is confusing for sure

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Offline awkwardcustomer

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2017, 08:53:40 PM »
Very confusing.

It depends on whether the account of the Angel apparitions in Sr Lucy's memoirs was her first description of the events. If it was, then the Church can't have approved the Angel apparitions since the account wasn't made public until 1941.

And of course the 1916 Angel apparitions aren't included in the Church approval of 1930 which refers only to the apparitions of 1917.

I'd better check, though.
And formerly the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise.  
St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15, para 9.

And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
WB Yeats, 'The Second Coming'.
 

Offline Baldrick

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2017, 08:58:34 PM »
Everything seems confusing with Fatima:  what's actually approved and when; whether the so-called "third secret" has been released - or was a fraud?  How many pages was it again?  Roncalli's deciding not to make it public because it doesn't relate to his papacy; a non sequitur if ever there was one, lol.  Two Sister Lucias.  Etc. 

As far as the "threats" - isn't that similar to the request to King Louis XIV to Consecrate France to the Sacred Heart?  His (and his successor's) failure was a disaster for France, no? 

And isn't the Blessed Virgin Mary God's masterpiece:  she who conforms perfectly to His will?  So it's not like these apparitions are renegade jaunts, as if she were "going rogue" lol. She's doing His will.   
 
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Offline tradne4163

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Re: More Problems with Fatima accounts (Remnant article)
« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2017, 09:07:14 PM »
And Pope Pius X had already approved a First Saturdays devotion to the Immaculate Conception, which seems to have been lost in preference to the Fatima First Saturdays.

I had wondered about this. Are the First Saturday devotions described differently? Is the Fatima version identical to the one defined and approved by Pope Pius X or is it different?

Hi jmjZelie.  Awkwardcustomer's concerns about the First Saturdays have already been addressed to him in a previous thread.  See this post.
http://www.suscipedomine.com/forum/index.php?topic=17803.msg395707#msg395707

So they have been changed? Am I understanding this correctly?

For my own self, I have never been able to complete the 5 First Saturdays. My family and I have tried for years to do it and we always have some sort of conflict, usually illness in one of our children, that prevents us from even beginning the devotion. It has been absolutely maddening. We get the breakfast made ahead, the clothes laid out, everything in place for Saturday morning Mass. And then overnight, someone gets sick. My husband and I decided that we would stop trying, because it was just too much of a hardship to try to do it with our family. Surprisingly, we never have this problem with Sunday Mass. At the present time, other than Sunday Mass, our weekly devotions and faith practices are only at home. That being said, we felt just awful that we were unable to fulfill what seemed to be such a simple request.
There is a little known indult I heard about that is granted by Our Lady for cases like yours. Any priest can transfer the devotion to the following Sunday during confession, and only during confession. Granted, I read it in the Fatima Crusader. That said, I am inclined to believe it since the Fatima Center eats, sleeps, and breaths this stuff.

Of course, the main message of Fatima also included being dilegent in the duties of your state of life. So in a sense you are living the message even if you never can complete the 5 First Saturdays.
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