Author Topic: Rosary in Latin-Credo question  (Read 3991 times)

Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2017, 10:24:54 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.

So I can be clear, I am specifically referring to gown folks....the only people posting on this thread.

Of course children don't have a grasp over how any language works....

I think this would put me in a rock and a hard place.  I can't use Latin words until I fully understand the grammar, syntax, etc?  So, how do I learn grammar and all without having some knowledge of words, phrases, punctuation, etc?  There's going to be some overlap of memorization and understanding. 

As far as the prayers I pray at home, yes, I do understand the words I'm saying, even if I don't understand the nuts and bolts of Latin grammar.  It's not complete rote memorization or oblivious mumbling of sounds that I'm simply repeating.
 
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Offline Matamoros

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2017, 10:25:15 PM »
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.
 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2017, 10:27:44 PM »
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

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Offline Pheo

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2017, 10:31:28 PM »
I'll take the opposite position and say that we should be able to pray in Latin.  Even NOers talk about it being a good idea to have a common language to pray in during pilgrimages etc.

Part of the push-back may be the prevalence of unilingualism among Anglophones.  A good chunk of the non-English world speaks more than one language, so maybe it's easier for them to flip back and forth without it feeling forced or put-on (incidentally, the US is second only to Australia for the lowest percentage of bilingual citizens).  Just guessing here.  I learned French in school and didn't find Latin very difficult to figure out, especially for simple prayers like those in the Rosary.
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2017, 10:34:21 PM »
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You are not doing anything wrong and this is not normally a contentious issue. 

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to drop out of a thread when it takes on a tone you are not comfortable with.  KK is not behaving well but you should not let it discourage you.
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2017, 10:59:05 PM »
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You asked a question, got responses, people can't understand those responses, so you decide to stop posting in this thread?

It's a discussion forum. 

 ::)

How do you people get on in secular society?

Since I have realized now that the voice of opposition seems to be yours alone, and that it was not wrong of me to pose the question that I did, I will respond to your post directly.

First, I don't owe responses to anyone, even in a thread I started on a discussion forum. It is a place of free association, after all.

Second, if someone starts having a go at me with questioning and insisting upon me defending my personal habits in face to face interactions, I say that I will not continue the discussion unless it be civil, and I walk away if necessary.

So my choice to step back from discussions on anonymous forums would be consistent with that. If that is disagreeable to you, so be it. I do not try to offend with my behavior but I do recognize that I will never be everyone's cup of tea.
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2017, 11:01:38 PM »
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.

This is a very helpful post! Thank you for explaining this. We actually are greatly enjoying learning Latin, both with our curriculum and with our prayers. I realized it was not strictly necessary but it has already been so good for us that we plan to continue for...well...forever. 😀
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Offline Matamoros

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2017, 11:14:31 PM »
Why pray in Latin? Until recently the Church required priests and religious, even those not well trained in Latin, to pray in Latin, so that the universal Church prayed with one voice, as it were. However I believe (though I may be mistaken) that the laity have always been allowed to say the rosary and other extra-liturgical devotions in the vernacular. Perhaps as a convert, jmjzelie is not aware that this was quite normal even in the past. Nevertheless, if she and others want to unite their voices more closely to that of the Church by praying in its universal language, I can't see any reason why they shouldn't. If they know their rosary in English, then they know what they are saying in Latin. Being able to parse every word really isn't necessary.

This is a very helpful post! Thank you for explaining this. We actually are greatly enjoying learning Latin, both with our curriculum and with our prayers. I realized it was not strictly necessary but it has already been so good for us that we plan to continue for...well...forever. 😀

I'm pleased to have been of service. I also have a great love of the Latin language.
 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2017, 11:25:48 PM »
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.
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Offline Gardener

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2017, 01:05:10 AM »
Why pray in Latin?

Patrimony, palpable extension to the past (pre-Reformation) in a manner which is exactly the same as ALL our ancestors (well, those of us with a European lineage) would have prayed at least at times, a sanctified manner of prayer (that is, set aside for a special purpose), to grow in greater admiration of the truth that "[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." [Rom] -- in other words, sometimes it helps to pray in a manner which  forces concentration on the prayer rather than our own thoughts; it helps to remember that our prayers do not depend on us in some sense.

It's the same reason "Messianic Christians" and Jews pray in Hebrew (not even using it day to day in the 1st century, it having been replaced by Aramaic), Orthodox pray in Greek, and Muslims pray in Arabic. There's something about an original language going back to the early days of a religion -- even if, in this case, it was the language of the empire it overthrew through patience. To use a Hebrew example, there's simply something mysterious about saying, "Shema, Israel, Adonai Eloheinu..." "Hear, Israel The Lord is Our God" just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. There's something really cool about hearing the Our Father in Aramaic because it's highly likely that would have been the language in which Christ gave it to the Apostles rather than Hebrew:


It has a poetic element to it. Rhythmic and rhyming -- similar to the Arabic poetry I've heard. You simply don't get that in the received English translation, and in many ways not in the Latin (but you do get it in the prayers originally written in Latin).



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Offline Jayne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2017, 01:36:33 AM »
No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

In post #4 you asked a question: "why pray private prayer in Latin regularly?"

You received two answers.

Then in post #9 you said: "To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues."

That is not just a question.  That is an assertion that vernacular is best for personal prayers, which carries an implication that those who pray in Latin are choosing a sub-optimal practice.  This is a challenge to defend it, not a simple request for information.  Of course, you are picking up some defensiveness after you say something like that.  It is not people being aggressive, but the natural response to your comment.

Also, even though we are discussing praying in Latin, you keep referring using terms like "non-native tongues" "foreign language" "foreign tongue".  Nobody is proposing that it is good to pray in foreign languages for the sake of praying in foreign languages (except possibly Heinrich - it is not clear what his point was).  We are specifically talking about praying in the language of the Church. People keep stressing this point because you seem to be missing it.
 
For most of us, it is not only obvious that Latin is the language of the Church, but that it is good to pray in the language of the Church.  This is not something that should need defending.  Your opinion that it is best to pray in the vernacular is the one that needs support.  Where does this idea appear in Church teaching?

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As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.

There is a huge difference between leaving the forum because "someone said something mean" and dropping out of a specific thread that takes a nasty turn.  Avoiding specific threads, topics, or posters is exactly what most people need to do in order to cope with forums.  That is not "troubling sensitivity."  That is how to retain one's sanity.

Many people around here need to learn how to recognize when to walk away from a thread.  Instead of mocking a person who was doing it right, you should have pointed her out as a good example.

If you have a problem with me "chastising your posting habits" that's legit.  Fraternal correction should normally be done privately.  My tone was probably all wrong too because I was posting in anger.  I'm sorry.  You can make a case that I earned some mocking or snark.  But I don't see that there is anyone else that you should be mean to in this thread.
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Offline Lynne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2017, 07:26:26 AM »
after reading other responses in this thread, I decided to remove mine.

Thank you Jayne, Gardener and  Matamoros.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 07:32:57 AM by Lynne »
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2017, 07:40:06 AM »
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

You are not just "asking an honest question".  You were explicitly expressing disapproval. You were putting people on the defensive.  You were mocking someone because she was dismayed at having her request for information get turned into a debate. Your comments in this thread were full of personal remarks.

How about showing some appreciation toward non-confrontational people? It is actually a desirable characteristic.  Would you really want a forum full of people like me?  What's the matter with you?

No, Jayne, I was asking an honest question.  You can see my first few responses.  I don't think I was more aggressive than any replies.  (Isn't it rather obvious Latin is the language of the Church?  C'mon).

As to my mocking - it's not exactly a rare sentiment to see here at this forum - "Oh, no, someone said something mean.  I'm GONE!"  If you're allowed to chastise my posting habits, I think it's only fair that I can comment on a troubling sensitivity I see on the forum.

Why you felt the need to mock and speak uncharitably in the first place is beyond me.  When I first asked why it was wrong, I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers.  I vaguely remembered you mentioning before that you didn't think it was a good thing.  Again, there's no objective right or wrong, so we are all free to choose which language we pray in.  You are not free, however, to treat us with disdain simply because we choose not pray in the language you see as most fit.  Even after giving you several answers as to 1) why we pray in Latin and 2) why we don't see it as a foreign language, you kept asking why we choose to pray in a foreign togue.  I don't know why you chose to ignore our answers.  A couple others have come in and added some really good points, too.  You don't like to pray in Latin....got it.  That's perfectly fine. Your opinion is duly noted.  If there are reasons why you think it's not a good thing, or some Saint quotes supporting your opninion, maybe you could share those, instead of telling us about how poorly we must get on in society, and insinuating that we have poor comprehension skills.  As the owner of this forum, I would expect you to hold yourself to a higher standard when it comes to posting with charity, especially when it comes to things that are a matter of preference and not dogma....of course, that is just my own personal opinion. Jmj is not only a relatively new poster here, but also a relatively new convert to The Faith.  We should be welcoming her as one of our own, and guiding and helping her figure out the ins and outs of Catholicism.  Not making her feel like an idiot. I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but I'm betting that's what some of your comments did, because that's how it came across to me.  If praying in Latin is wrong or not as good as vernacular, then please kindly tell us why, rather than just saying it doesn't make any sense to you.

Also, please note that my tone here is not at all intended to be aggressive.  I'm just beng transparent with you, so you can have a better understanding of why we got frustrated in the first place.  It's meant to help you, not aggravate you  :)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 07:54:13 AM by MundaCorMeum »
 
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Offline Matto

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2017, 02:04:35 PM »
When I first became a traditional Catholic I learned prayers in Latin. I wrote down lots of prayers in Latin and tried to memorize some of them which I thought were beautiful without even knowing what the words meant in English, like the Ave Maris Stella. And I prayed the Rosary in Latin. It seemed natural because Latin is the sacred language of the Church so it made sense to use it in prayer. When I went to my first SSPX Mass I was very surprised that when they prayed the Rosary before Mass it was in English and not in Latin. But now I pray the Rosary in English and not in Latin and I have even forgotten how to say the Credo in Latin. I don't remember why I stopped praying privately in Latin and started to pray in English.
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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2017, 02:58:24 PM »
Why pray in Latin?

Patrimony, palpable extension to the past (pre-Reformation) in a manner which is exactly the same as ALL our ancestors (well, those of us with a European lineage) would have prayed at least at times, a sanctified manner of prayer (that is, set aside for a special purpose), to grow in greater admiration of the truth that "[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings." [Rom] -- in other words, sometimes it helps to pray in a manner which  forces concentration on the prayer rather than our own thoughts; it helps to remember that our prayers do not depend on us in some sense.

It's the same reason "Messianic Christians" and Jews pray in Hebrew (not even using it day to day in the 1st century, it having been replaced by Aramaic), Orthodox pray in Greek, and Muslims pray in Arabic. There's something about an original language going back to the early days of a religion -- even if, in this case, it was the language of the empire it overthrew through patience. To use a Hebrew example, there's simply something mysterious about saying, "Shema, Israel, Adonai Eloheinu..." "Hear, Israel The Lord is Our God" just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi. There's something really cool about hearing the Our Father in Aramaic because it's highly likely that would have been the language in which Christ gave it to the Apostles rather than Hebrew:


It has a poetic element to it. Rhythmic and rhyming -- similar to the Arabic poetry I've heard. You simply don't get that in the received English translation, and in many ways not in the Latin (but you do get it in the prayers originally written in Latin).
if people want to pray family prayers in Latin, and they find it to be a benefit and not a hindrance to their prayer life,good for them

for me, at the point where I am right now it would be a hindrance to do prayers at home in Latin. 

One key difference between Jews and Catholics is that the study of the hebrew language is a common element of Jewish learning for children.  while this might not have always been the case in all times, generally speaking Jewish boys and girls all receive instruction in Hebrew so that they can pray in Hebrew, as well as understand Hebrew prayers and readings during shul.  This isn't a special add on to Jewish religious element, but a crucial aspect of it

Latin is the language of the Church, but instruction in Latin is far from universal.  Most children do not learn it in school.  I don't think there was ever a time in history where learning Latin was available to everyone.  There might be some traditional catholic parishes here and there that offer it to their parishioners but I'd consider that the exception and not the rule.  While it might be part of our patrimony, you have to seek it out if you want to learn it and it isn't usually taught as part of a catechism program, from what seen
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