Author Topic: Rosary in Latin-Credo question  (Read 3945 times)

Offline Bonaventure

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 09:34:17 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?
 
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 09:37:35 PM »
How could there be anything wrong with saying prayers in Latin?  It is the language of the Church.  It is not like one is learning prayers in random languages with no religious significance, as Heinrich suggests.

I'm not saying it's wrong.  I'm asking why one would do it. 

To my mind, personal/private prayer is best done in the vernacular/mother tongue.  Hence, I'm asking why others would use non-native tongues.

Would you not pray the Rosary in German here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Frauenkirche?

ETA: For those who don't know, that is the Cathedral of our Lady in Munich, Germany. The Seat of the Archdiocese of Munich.

That is a beautiful Cathedral. If I was ever so lucky to travel to Germany, the I suppose I would want to try to learn enough German to be able to pray with my fellow Catholics. I don't speak much German. I have forgotten most of what I did learn back in middle school. But I do like to learn and understand other tongues as far as I am able.

Thanks for sharing the pic!
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 09:41:58 PM »
I have the impression that it is fairly common among Catholic homeschoolers (especially those learning Latin) to do at least some of the family prayers in Latin.  Such families tend to be very conscious of helping their children to learn.  Using the Latin in prayers gives a focus to their Latin studies and reinforces what they have learned.
 
Latin is not, however, just any non-native tongue. It is one with special significance for all Catholics.  It is not at all like Heinrich's example of praying in German.

I very well might pray in German if I were a visiting a German church, but there is no good reason for me to use it when praying by myself.

Good for Catholic homeschoolers, I guess.

IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 09:43:24 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

Yes we are studying all those things too. But slowly. Because I am doing my best to learn so I can teach. So we learn first how to say it, along with the English meaning of each word. Then we go back and learn about the forms of the words used and the order of the words in phrases.
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 09:54:55 PM »
I have the impression that it is fairly common among Catholic homeschoolers (especially those learning Latin) to do at least some of the family prayers in Latin.  Such families tend to be very conscious of helping their children to learn.  Using the Latin in prayers gives a focus to their Latin studies and reinforces what they have learned.
 
Latin is not, however, just any non-native tongue. It is one with special significance for all Catholics.  It is not at all like Heinrich's example of praying in German.

I very well might pray in German if I were a visiting a German church, but there is no good reason for me to use it when praying by myself.

Good for Catholic homeschoolers, I guess.

IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.

Wait. I am confused. Isn't this forum named in Latin? Isn't the Tridentine Mass in Latin?

Isn't learning Latin encouraged and considered a good thing to do?

Because it seems like some responses here would suggest that it is a poor use of time and a wrong choice for prayer. I am very confused by this.

I also have the Latin Vulgate Holy Bible, so that I can read the official Bible of the Catholic Church. Is that wrong too? Is reading the Latin readings and comparing it side by side with the English translations in the readings of the Mass, so that we can learn more a bad thing?

I don't know...

My kids and husband and I love learning Latin and we are very thankful we were encouraged to learn it. I love to hear my children sing the beautiful Latin hymns. I love to be able to understand a little more every week and notice phrases from the Bible in Gregorian chant music on Pandora. It lifts my heart. My children are enthusiastic about it. They look so excited when they realize they understand another phrase or prayer at Mass. I don't see why there should be a problem with any of that.
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2017, 09:56:20 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.
 
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Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2017, 09:57:10 PM »
No one is critiquing the learning of Latin.  Shoot, reading isn't that hard.

My complaint is the use of a foreign language in one's private/personal prayers and devotions. 

If y'all can't read that, how do you expect to internalize prayer in Latin?

:lol:
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Offline jmjZelie

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2017, 09:58:15 PM »
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2017, 10:01:06 PM »
No one is critiquing the learning of Latin.  Shoot, reading isn't that hard.

My complaint is the use of a foreign language in one's private/personal prayers and devotions. 

If y'all can't read that, how do you expect to internalize prayer in Latin?

:lol:

Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2017, 10:03:47 PM »
I guess I am sorry that I asked the question. I didn't realize that this was a contentious issue. My family and I were merely trying to do what we understood to be normal. As converts, that is all we can do. This will be my last post in this thread. Have a good week.

You asked a question, got responses, people can't understand those responses, so you decide to stop posting in this thread?

It's a discussion forum. 

 ::)

How do you people get on in secular society?
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Offline Bonaventure

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2017, 10:05:28 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

My toddler doesn't understand grammar, syntax, conjugation, etc....when praying with us in English.  Should I make him stop until he does?  Memorization before understanding is not necessarily a bad thing.  We are taking Latin next year with our co-op group, so I'm hoping to go deeper with the kids as they get older.

So I can be clear, I am specifically referring to gown folks....the only people posting on this thread.

Of course children don't have a grasp over how any language works....
 

Offline Kaesekopf

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2017, 10:06:58 PM »
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum? 
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2017, 10:17:13 PM »
IF the homeschoolers are studying Latin and mastering it, that's one thing.  If, however, the extent of Latin goes to rote memorization, then I argue that's not how you should be 'doing' personal or private prayer.  Prayer time is not 'reinforce study time', prayer time is not 'buffer your skills' time, it's time to pray and commune with Our Lord.

When I pray the Rosary in English, I am not thinking much about the meaning of the words, but about the mysteries of the Rosary.  It is the same in Latin.

One studies Latin in the first place in order to be able to pray in Latin.  So, of course, praying reinforces the studying.

You are coming across as if you are discouraging the use of Latin in prayer.  I can think of no Church teaching which takes such a position.

Veterum Sapientia captures the Church's attitude to Latin:
Quote
Venerable languages

The Church has ever held the literary evidences of this wisdom in the highest esteem. She values especially the Greek and Latin languages in which wisdom itself is cloaked, as it were, in a vesture of gold. She has likewise welcomed the use of other venerable languages, which flourished in the East. For these too have had no little influence on the progress of humanity and civilization. By their use in sacred liturgies and in versions of Holy Scripture, they have remained in force in certain regions even to the present day, bearing constant witness to the living voice of antiquity.

A primary place

But amid this variety of languages a primary place must surely be given to that language which had its origins in Latium, and later proved so admirable a means for the spreading of Christianity throughout the West.

And since in God's special Providence this language united so many nations together under the authority of the Roman Empire -- and that for so many centuries -- it also became the rightful language of the Apostolic See.3 Preserved for posterity, it proved to be a bond of unity for the Christian peoples of Europe.

The nature of Latin

Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all.

Nor must we overlook the characteristic nobility of Latin for mal structure. Its "concise, varied and harmonious style, full of majesty and dignity"4 makes for singular clarity and impressiveness of expression.

Preservation of Latin by the Holy See

For these reasons the Apostolic See has always been at pains to preserve Latin, deeming it worthy of being used in the exercise of her teaching authority "as the splendid vesture of her heavenly doctrine and sacred laws."5 She further requires her sacred ministers to use it, for by so doing they are the better able, wherever they may be, to acquaint themselves with the mind of the Holy See on any matter, and communicate the more easily with Rome and with one another.

Thus the "knowledge and use of this language," so intimately bound up with the Church's life, "is important not so much on cultural or literary grounds, as for religious reasons."6 These are the words of Our Predecessor Pius XI, who conducted a scientific inquiry into this whole subject, and indicated three qualities of the Latin language which harmonize to a remarkable degree with the Church's nature. "For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure to the end of time ... of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non-vernacular."7
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm
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Offline Jayne

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2017, 10:19:02 PM »
For all those saying "it's the language of the Church," when you recite these prayers in Latin, is it simply rote memory? Or do you actually understand the grammar, syntax, conjugation etc of the language?

Yes, I understand all these things.  I can parse every word of every prayer in the Rosary. 

I suspect that a lot of people who pray in English do not have this level of knowledge of grammar.  It has nothing to do with the sincerity or value of the prayer.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 10:39:48 PM by Jayne »
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Offline MundaCorMeum

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Re: Rosary in Latin-Credo question
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2017, 10:21:28 PM »
Is there a church​ teaching against it?  I'm not sure why others personal prayer habits have any effect on you.  How do you know we don't internalize Latin prayers?  I know what the words mean, and I've read that Latin prayers are more powerful.

It doesn't have an effect on me.  I'm asking an honest question, why would you pray in a foreign tongue?

Why do people take things so personally on a discussion forum?

We gave you our answers, and you kept pressing the issue.  If you feel differently, that's fine.  It is, afterall, like you said, a discussion forum.  No one is saying you have to pray in Latin.  But, if there's no objective right or wrong on the issue, you shouldn't make people feel like they are doing something wrong or that they are stupid, which is kind of the impression I got from your responses; nor should you laugh at them.  I apologize in advance if I misunderstood your angle....sometimes it's hard to tell tone on a forum....you just seem very "naysayer".

Like I said....I don't personally see it as strictly a foreign tongue.  As a Catholic, I see it somewhat as my "native language", so I feel drawn to learn it better.  Memorizing prayers that I already know the meaning of is a good start to learning the official language of our religion, in my opinion.  I've also read before that Latin prayers are very powerful.  That doesn't mean Catholics have to pray in Latin always.  But, I like to sometimes. And, I like teaching my children the same.
 
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